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Quick Reaction: 13x22 Exodus

Yay for poor decisions! Episode downloaded, I have trouble falling asleep when I'm drunk anyway, so EPISODE IT IS - and yes, I know that it's not good to get this tipsy when you're drinking alone, but in fairness I have all of YOU people, figuratively, with me.

So, it's midnight, I am both tired and drunk - let's see if I can summarize and react to this episode... naturally, if you don't know the rules by now, there's no hope for you... (or you are new, HELLO!)

EPISODE....

So, this episode was written by BuckLeming, my least favourite writing pair, who NOTORIOUSLY ALWAYS KILL SOMEONE IN THEIR FUCKING FINALE-ADJACENT EPISODES BECAUSE THEY ARE THE WORST. BUT, the good news, spoiler alert - is that they kill Gabriel - so, being that it's Gabriel, we can believe that he's not dead. Yay! He is alive and well in the other world, or disguised as one of the people who DID make it through the rift (do body double's work through the rift? Who knows, the point is, Gabriel is alive and you can pry him from my cold dead hands.... especially since a whole bunch of people called him Gabe this episode, which is the name I most associate with my BFF4eva, so no one named Gabe is allowed to die ever. - fun fact, my BFF4eva prefers to go by Gab, but it is TOO LATE FOR ME MY FRIENDS. He can pry his anglicized nickname out of my cold dead hands.)

Where was I? Or yeah, I hadn't even started.

For a BuckLeming episode, this wasn't actually THAT bad, but then again, I am quite drunk. It was mostly a character episode, which helped. I kind of wish they had given the character episode to writers that were better with character, but again, they didn't actually do too bad a job to this drunken idiot, so I'm going to cut them a break. Also, this episode was jam packed with good actors, so they just elevated everything as per usual.

Now, let's actually start talking about the episode...

We pick up exactly where we left off. Yay! Yay? I don't know, I guess it makes sense for the timeline - speaking of which, unless they give me a date next episode, 90% of the S13 timeline is going to be "Unknown" - like, I can't even for sure say if they're past Christmas yet, that's how unknown the timeline is.

OH MY GOD START TALKING ABOUT THE EPISODE...

Sam comes to town and Lucifer is like "I DID THAT! I SAVED YOUR SURROGATE DADDY! I AM AWESOME" and no one is buying it, but Jack is in that weird frozen state that happens to all of us when we have one shitty parent that we JUST DO NOT WANT TO DEAL WITH ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. I wrote down the word "ruthless" here - and I think it's because Lucifer referred to himself as "ruthless" and then tried to say it was a good thing. I note down weird things, but there you have it.

Dean wants Jack to kill Lucifer - and Lucifer is like "he can't, he doesn't have enough power" but really, he's thinking "he can't, he doesn't want to - I'M IN!" So Dean yells louder, and Jack yells "STOP IT!" and BAMFS away. (Do people know BAMF? That's a common knowledge thing right? The sound Nightcrawler makes when he teleports? Or am I confusing it with Bad-As-MotherFucker... NOPE, looked it up, I'm right.)

Dean is like "OH NICE GOING! THAT'S WHAT HE DOES WHEN HE'S SCARED!" which is a)adorable, because that's such a parent thing to say, and b)Dean - YOU WERE THE ONE THAT WAS YELLING. I hate it when people raise their voices and I would bamf out of there so hard if I were Jack and Dean was yelling at me. I would reverse time just so that I could bamf out of there yesterday.

Gabriel runs off to find him, but then like...never does? What the heck, Gabe, you had ONE JOB - I would have liked to have seen Jack bonding more with Gabe, rather than Gabe being largely indifferent to him, or so it seemed.

Cas decides that if Lucifer is wants to play nice, then he'll agree to being cuffs - and what I love about this is that Cas walks up to Dean and takes the cuffs out of his backpack - and... I don't know if you quite understand the level of intimacy that action actually displays. Several things have to happen, a)Dean allows Cas to root around in his bag and stays perfectly still well he does so, without question, b)Castiel knows Dean will allow him to do this, and c)Cas knows EXACTLY where Dean packed the angel cuffs, because he doesn't actually search for them - he opens a specific pocket and pulls them out.

Lucifer tells them that they have 31 hours, give or take, before the rift closes. And they take him at his word - but we cut to the rift and we see that it's already pulsing.

Sam sets a timer, and then Dean finds him so they can converse. Sam apologizes for dying, because HE'S SAM, and Dean is like "Are you alive now?" "yeah" "Then you've got nothing to apologize for" and then he hugs the bejeesus out of him, and Sam is like NOOO, I NEEDED THAT BEJEESUS! .... sorry... I cracked myself up there... really, Sam hugs him back and does the closed-eye-savouring-affection things and it's heartfelt.

Dean brings down the mood with a "what are we going to do about Lucifer?" question, and Sam is like "I'll handle him." Okidoke, Sam, you face your worst fears.

Meanwhile, Jack is sulking by a tree, as you do, and thinking about his non-shitty parent who is sadly dead, because them's the breaks sometimes. Kelly insisted that Jack can be whatever he chooses to be - and then Jack thinks of Sam, and how awesome and empathetic and compassionate Sam is... and then he thinks of all the mistakes he himself has made, and how he's all CONFUSED, because he is (probably) still less than a year old, and his life has SUCKED.

Mary, meanwhile, punches Lucifer - and I was super confused because I didn't think they knew each other, because I COMPLETELY FORGOT HOW MARY ENDED UP THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. Don't drink kids.

Mary then talks to the boys and tells them that she wants to stay and fight, that she can't just leave with them. Dean is all like MY BROTHER DIED TO SAVE YOU AND I JUST WANT MY MOM! But Sam is silently understanding, because he also can't abandon people in a burning building if there's a chance that he could save them. I love this exchange though, because Dean does the classic "tell her Sam" and Sam takes Mary's side, and Dean's like "SEE!" before he even registers that Sam wasn't on the same side as him (necessarily). BUT, Sam is also SUPER SMART SAMMY, because he finds a way to give EVERYBODY what they want - and I'm skipping ahead hear a little, but I don't even care - because tells Mary that what they should do is ALL come over to the Bunker so that they can plan somewhere SAFE. And this way, Dean gets his mom back, but Mary's not abandoning her newly found peeps.

I think Mary also suffers from "I need to have a purpose" syndrome - where if she's not actively hunting, she feels restless and pointless and depressed. I think she was probably only able to retire and shack up with John because she had a marriage and babies to focus on... with her babies gone and suddenly grown kids who don't REALLY need her, she's got a really weird case of empty nest syndrome... and also the knowledge that her kids are hunting, which isn't even the life she had sacrificed her hunting-self to build for them.

On anothe sidenote, I DO think these Mary seasons are a little problematic with how they're contradictory to the Mary we see in the timetravel episodes in S4 and S5, who justs WANTS OUT. Maybe it's because by necessity she's around hunting, and she doesn't fit into the world anymore, that she dives so whole heartedly into - maybe it's a product of years in the sterilized memories of heaven, where she craves the gritty violent reality to remind herself that she's alive and this is real... who knows... I know in S12, it was largely about ridding the world of monsters in an effort to effectively FORCE retire the boys... but I think this season, it's about purpose and loyalty to a cause.

Also, I just realized that Mary and Ketch are both in this episode like they've already been reunited, but we didn't see that meeting, and now I feel robbed. That'd be AWKWARD AF, and I demand uh... some word I can't remember... SATISFACTION! (I remembered!)

Anyway, in the midst of that Winchester scene, we cut away to Lucifer, who is taking to Castiel - who is "not your sport"  - I love Cas. Jack shows up and is willing to listen to Lucifer, and Cas is like OH NO!!! But Jack is insistent. Lucifer immediately starts trying to spin and doing a bumbling doubletalk to keep Jack from the truth. Lucifer claims that God locked him up for telling the truth, and that he's just looking for redemption... and Cas is like OH NO!!! and leaves to get the boys in a small panic.

Lucifer, meanwhile, starts talking to Jack about the family - how his grandfather is God, etc. Cas is back, I guess? Because that's what my notes say, and Cas is like "WE'RE YOUR FAMILY! ME AND THE WINCHESTERS ARE YOUR FAMILY!" but Jack still wants to hear Lucifer out... and frankly I'm insulted. This is every adoptive parent's worst nightmare - where your kids biological dad is LITERALLY EVIL and they STILL seem like their choosing him over you because of stupid BIOLOGY. UGH.

Everyone starts walking to the rift? Nope, they're walking to a camp. Dean orders Sam to go back and monitor what Lucifer is saying to Jack, and A)DEAN FOR GOD'S SAKE, DO NOT ORDER YOUR BROTHER TO HANG OUT WITH HIS LITERAL WORST NIGHTMARE AND FORMER ABUSER!!! I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO TELL YOU THIS. (Seriously though, this is how much we castrate our villains in these later seasons - they really learned nothing with how effective Death's introduction was, and his subsequent appearances) and B)I FORGET WHAT B WAS GOING TO BE BECAUSE I GOT DISTRACTED BY WRITING CRITICISM. 

Mary is SURPRISINGLY nonchalant about Jack having poison poured into his ear. Did we not learn anything from wormtail? No wait, that's the harry potter guy - who was it in Lord of the Rings? Wormtongue? Anyway... the point is, PSYCHOLOGICAL POISON IS HAPPENING. Shitty emotionally manipulative parents are THE WORST and I HATE LUCIFER SO MUCH I WANT HIM TO DIE.

I am getting way too capslocky, and I think my liver actually hurts. I'm switching to water.

I think Mary is calm because she thinks that Jack could kill Michael with Lucifer's help? I have "Jack wants to kill Michael with Lucifer" written down in my notes, but can't remember if it's something that Mary says or something Jack says, but it IS said, and that's the important bit. And that Mary is confident in Jack.

Gabriel is momentarily missing, but then runs back in with angels on his tail. Lucifer kills them all with a snap of his fingers, because apparently the cuffs don't work in this world - good to know.

They got to Singer Auto Salvage, which is in ...uh, wherever the heck they are? Kentucky or Cleveland or something. I just said it last week. Dean is put out that it's not in Sioux Falls, and AU!Bobby is like "why would anyone choose to freeze in the winter?" and 95% of Canadians question their life choices, before remembering that they have healthcare and are less likely to be gunned down at school, and then the winter suddenly doesn't seem so bad.

Bobby reports that Charlie and Ketch are out on a mission to save some people from execution. Charlie is leading the mission.

Bobby also thinks that the boys idea to take everyone to their own world is really dumb.

Lucifer keeps chatting to Jack while they walk around the car yard. (which is, in fact, a different location than Bobby's old place). They come across Gabe, and Lucifer tries to introduce him, but then has to interrupt whenever Gabe tries to tell any truth to Jack about Lucifer. Eventually, Gabriel does manage to chide Lucifer for playing the part of the victim when it's obviously just an excuse for everything horrible that he's done.

Meanwhile, Charlie and Ketch find out that their rescue op is actually A TRAP!

Sam and Dean talk to the leaders of the camp and outline the plan, asking them to think about it. Then a messenger comes in with news of Charlie and Ketch's capture.

We cut back to Charlie and Ketch being tortured for information - and the angels call in their torture/information-extraction-expert - who turns out to be AU!Castiel!!!

And I do love these two scenes coming up laid out together, for what they have to say about my favourite Shakespearean philosophical discussion- "there is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so"

Because we get Sam and Dean interrogating the spy for the angels who set Charlie and Ketch up, and they also call in Castiel to extract the information they need. and Castiel and AU!Castiel work in the exact same way....as we find out....

But first, we get Lucifer and Gabe talking to each other. They've been told to stay behind and protect the base while everyone else mounts the rescue.

Gabriel is confident that Jack won't like Lucifer. And I love the line "I've known you since the stars were made" - I think I'll just start using that for my oldest friends and see if anyone says anything.

Gabe insists that Lucifer lives only for power and to be worshiped. He recounts how humans were innocent and beautiful, and Lucifer couldn't stand that God loved them more than him, so he corrupted them - and Lucifer was a cancer that God had to cut out, but it was too late.

THEN, we get the scene with AU!Castiel, who has ANOTHER WEIRD ACCENT? That's sort of German/Russian, weird sort of Hogen's Heroes/James Bond villain? I don't even know. Did AU!Castiel pick up Jimmy Novak and then get assigned to eastern Europe? I'm confused. I mean, I'm AMUSED, but I'm also REALLY CONFUSED.

I don't know where the choice was here - and maybe they just wanted to mark the difference - but like, do a nervous twitch or Barty Crouch's liplicking thing... the conversation later between Cas and Cas would have been WAY more powerful if they sounded exactly the same.

Anyway, before Castiel can mind-drain/kill Charlie, the lights go out and the rescue is mounted - and also a success! Yay!

While people take care of the Charlie and Ketch, Castiel takes on Castiel. And I do love the simple dialogue here - "more than one of us, fascinating" "I'm used to it." and then after the next cut-away scene, Cas telling AU!Cas that he vastly prefers humans to angels, and then agreeing with AU!Cas's "we're the same" just before Cas effectively kills himself. Like, wow, Cas is a REALLY INTERESTING CHARACTER.

The cut-away scene in the middle of that scene was Sam rescuing Charlie and giving her a big hug, much to Charlie's confusion, because she doesn't even know him. And then Dean rescuing Ketch and Ketch having witty remarks.

It's a win, yay!

Everyone agrees to go to the other world - SUSPICIOUS, I say... but apparently I'm outvoted and/or ignored and/or wrong.

In order to get there on time, Dean has to repair a bus. Which they let Lucifer drive for no good reason, even though it all works out.

Jack momentarily acts like he's going to go off alone to continue the plan of killing Michael all by his lonesome. Sam runs after him and tries to talk him out of it, and then Lucifer runs out of him too and also tries to talk him out of it - pointing out that he's going to put everyone else in danger. Then Jack is like "my father makes a good point" and it's like a little FATHER WAR and it's THE WORST, because they were arguing the same point, but it's like Sam's a woman in a business meeting and his advice only counts if it's coming from Lucifer. UGH, THE WORST.

Anyway, they're running out of time, so Sam can't dwell on anything... and they're all off to see the wizard... or, the witch.

Rowena, meanwhile, has found a chant that seems to hold the door open, but she's been away for two days, I guess, so she's getting A LITTLE SLEEPY.

Still, she holds the door better than that Hodor guy (I'm assuming, I don't watch that show, and I don't actually want to know because I have negative interest.)

Dean and Sam start sending their loved ones through first - yay, but they hold Gabe and Lucifer back in case something happens, and it does! There is an attack, and Michael shows up. Lucifer tries to fight him Dragonball Z style (or, Hadoken style? I'm not actually that big on my animes unless it's the first half of Naruto.) Lucifer fails, and falls back coughing and bleeding from the mouth. Gabriel steps up to fight, telling Dean and Sam to run, that he'll buy them time, and that he's not running anymore (No, Gabe, you're still running - I take solace in the fact that that's pretty much what he said the last time too.) But, Sam and Dean don't actually TAKE ADVANTAGE of this time, instead they just watch Gabriel get stabbered and "die" - though Dean does yell "GABE NO!' which is a great contribution, I'm sure.

Sam pushes Dean to go through the door, which he does, but Sam hangs back - because when Lucifer tries to follow Dean, Sam grabs him buy his face and looks BEAUTIFUL as he says "How did you think this was going to end?" and pushes him away from the door - going through, and closing the rift behind him.

YAY SAM!  NEARLY MY DREAMS COME TRUE. (Don't worry, I know I'm ultimately going to be disappointed)

Everyone is in the bunker, yay!

Sam and Rowena flirt chat about how they owe her one for keeping the rift open, while Sam continues to look beautiful.

Dean and Sam are bummed about Gabriel, but not so bummed about Lucifer... BUT MEANWHILE, Jack IS looking QUITE BUMMMED. (And I'm laughing now, because I realize that bummed has a completely different meaning to a large portion of the English speaking world... I mean that they're SAD! Which I'm sure is understood by CONTEXT. STOP BEING IMMATURE.)

Bobby gives a speech about fallen comrades and he welcomes Sam and Dean to the rebel family.

Back in the AU, Gabriel's corpse is still there, but THAT MEANS NOTHING... and Lucifer is making a deal with Michael. He'll help him open the rift, so that Lucifer can get his son back. And Michael says that he'll "get everything else" and Lucifer looks SOMEWHAT TORN ABOUT THIS DEAL.

And thus the episode ends.

Listen, if they give Lucifer a goddamn redemption arc, I'm going to be SO MAD. Also, I don't want Jack to turn evil, because he is a sweetypants. Also, Gabe's not actually dead.

And the promo for next week really gives the game away about what's going to happen next, and I'm not too thrilled about that either... BUT WHATEVER. I'll just rewrite this season like I did the last one when I did my rewatch, I guess, that turned out to be fun!

So, positives - a few really good lines! Also, some old-school GORGEOUS lighting and shots that I forgot to mention. Dean in profile in the interrogation, Mary framed in the back of the bus, Jack half in shadow... good acting by people (even people that I hate, though I have absolutely no sympathy for their characters because I HATE THE CHARACTER SO MUCH OH MY GOD.)

I am so tired, guys.

So, as usual, let me know your thoughts, balancing rule applies as far as you can stretch it. Tell me how beautiful Sam was and how amazing Dean's profile is.

I'll try to double-check my downloads next week earlier in the evening so that I don't end up going to bed at 2am again. This is going to HURT TOMORROW.





This entry was originally posted at https://hells-half-acre.dreamwidth.org/557658.html.

Comments

( 17 comments — Leave a comment )
caranfindel
May. 11th, 2018 06:54 pm (UTC)
OMG, I didn't even think about the Mary/Ketch reunion! What a thing for us to miss! Maybe there was more face punching?
hells_half_acre
May. 11th, 2018 07:04 pm (UTC)
I'm going to assume there was - or, that she doesn't know it's HER Ketch and thinks he's the AU version, and doesn't question it, and Ketch isn't about to give the game away.

But yeah, what a thing to miss!
rovallie5
May. 12th, 2018 01:09 am (UTC)
For being a buckleming episode, I actually like it. Sadly as is usual with them, we have an unfair death. But overall I enjoyed a lot.

And I got you when it comes to Lucifer, please he needs to die asap; Sam should have already done it. As for Jack, we know he technically is almost a year old, but for me he's going through a teenage phase he wants to find out who he truly is; and as you said it happens with adoptive kids that when they biological family appears, they take an interest on them. Believe me I've been there.

Oh the finale, so far I think everything points what would happen with Dean, but I wonder what would lead him to make that decision. Can Thursday be already here.

On a side note, I love your cultural references lol I personally watch that series that guy Hodor was on it haha but it's fine.
hells_half_acre
May. 12th, 2018 01:54 am (UTC)
Yeah, if you ignore the dumb death, it was actually pretty good! Even with the character that I hate the most. So, (almost) good job, BuckLeming!

You're right about Jack, of course - and he's completely justified in being curious about who he comes from, and then being sad that he seemingly missed his chance to find out. In my drunken state, I was really only looking at it from the Winchester's (Cas included) point of view, which is very much the "I don't want my kid to leave me" feelings of panic.

I'm glad you like my cultural references - I don't watch that much TV and I've got very particular tastes (and shows with high death rates aren't my faves), so, everything I reference that's current has usually just filtered in through the internet. :P
borgmama1of5
May. 12th, 2018 03:30 am (UTC)
Sam's last line to Lucifer makes this episode re-watchable.

And since I can't really think of anything else nice to say...
hells_half_acre
May. 12th, 2018 05:00 am (UTC)
Agreed. I do wish that it was really the final scene we'd ever have with Lucifer, because it was such a great last line for Sam to have.
kailita
May. 15th, 2018 04:24 am (UTC)
That "nothing to apologize for" got me a little bit in spite of myself. As did that hug, dammit. I know I'm susceptible to it, ha. Also, the alternate universe, as much as I hate it, does make the green in both brothers' eyes look just beautiful.

I ALSO forgot that Lucifer and Mary had met! I don't think it's the drinking, I think it's probably the disjointedness of the season. :/ Also, OMG MARY AND KETCH. I completely forgot about that as well, and you are so right that this episode would have been richer for an awkward interaction (or at least an acknowledgment!) between them.

When Mom first said that she was staying behind, it made me ANGRY, but I think that was more a response to the character than the decision. I think if Jody had given that rationale, it would have been heartbreaking and poignant, but coming from Mom it seems like a trivial excuse to keep avoiding her sons (who just sacrificed EVERYTHING to find her and save her). I was glad that Sam was able to find a best-of-both-worlds solution.

I like to think that Castiel learned this "shutting down Jack's agency" approach to parenting from watching Dean, haha. I mean, he's not wrong! Jack's whole "I'm not going to talk, I'm going to listen" approach made me shout at the screen, "That's an even worse idea!!" You would think Cas would be better at coming up with some concrete, specific reasons why Lucifer is the worst, though. Umm, we could start with the Apocalypse, which Castiel was there for...?

Dean sending SAM back to talk with Jack and Lucifer made me caps-locky with anger as well. WELL THAT TRAUMA LASTED A HOT SECOND AND A HALF. (Same with Lucifer driving the damn bus.)

Alt-Cas! I'm torn between kind of liking this and being really confused by this. Is this accent working? I don't really think so. (Maybe if some of the other angels ever had non-American accents?) I have no idea what to make of Castiel killing his evil self. What is this supposed to tell us about Cas?

SAM HUGGING CHARLIE. I just can't. Sam hugging anyone with abandon completely undoes me.

I also immediately thought of Street Fighter when Lucifer and Michael fought, haha. My notes say "SAM, GODDAMMIT. HE PULLED A DEAN." So I must have thought for a terrifying moment that he was going to sacrifice himself to kill Lucifer and Michael somehow, but I am much more pleased with the real outcome, even though I know it's all going to come crashing to the ground in the next episode. I mean, I support the choice to mercilessly kill Lucifer. Are you going to try to make us feel bad about this, Show? This is the actual Devil we're talking about. (Also, why would Lucifer feel guilty about letting Michael have everything in exchange for his son? I can't see that weighing too heavily on him.)

My notes also say "Where the hell did Sam get this camo jacket" and "OH MY GOD SAM WHAT KIND OF COZY LONG SLEEVES IS THIS. I AM DEAD." So clearly I had feelings about Sam's clothes.
hells_half_acre
May. 15th, 2018 05:43 am (UTC)
Yup yup, as usual we agree.

Mind you, I find it hilarious just how much my brain shuts down noticing clothes when I'm not in "clothes cataloguing mode" because I seriously cannot remember anything anyone wore. :P

I'm glad it's not just me that forgot about Mary and Lucifer - I think they could have easily woven it in - especially since we were exploring already the ramifications of having hung out with Lucifer as it concerns Sam and Rowena - to have that paralleled with Mary discussing her own experiences with Lucifer WITH JACK LUCIFER'S SON, would have a)Led to an even more compelling story of Mary and Jack, and b)kept the through-line that Mary disliked Lucifer (like, does she even know what he did to Sam? Could she not also talk about it from that perspective - as a mother dismayed at what happened to her son?)

I think they've really got a problem with their characterization of Mary - last year, they could justify it by her wanting to rid the world of monsters and therefore save her boys from hunting (by removing their agency, the patented Winchester parenting way) - but this year it really IS just her avoiding them, and paints her in a far less sympathetic light. I mean, YES, she's become loyal to the rebellion in this alternate world, but there's degrees of loyalty, I think - and really, she IS choosing between her boys and these rebels, and choosing the rebels - which is a pretty bitter pill to swallow on a show that tells us to put family first. GRANTED, the show also explores the ways that putting family first can be the WRONG thing to do, but at least SHOW us that.

Anyway, I'm rambling now and this comment is probably already too longer for LJs rules... so, I think I'll break it up...
hells_half_acre
May. 15th, 2018 05:53 am (UTC)
(wasn't as long as it felt! Still, second reply will insure I don't get cut off.)

I also think the accent on alt-Cas was a mistake. I don't know who the heck's decision that was - but it doesn't make sense to me.

I loved him killing his AU!self though, especially after agreeing that they were the same person (as in, they weren't good Cas and evil Cas, they were both Cas in fullness of being.) And I think that's what I loved about it, it was Castiel being FULLY AWARE of the range of his personality, the actions that he could take, could justify, the roads that he could go down and still fundamentally be himself. The only difference between the two Castiels was that one had never met the Winchesters, and therefore never fallen in love with humanity - because (and I KNOW this sounds shippy, but I don't mean it as such) that IS how Castiel fell in love with humanity. Without the Winchesters, that wouldn't have happened, and he would have stayed true to Heaven's plan, and eventually been convinced of the inferiority of humanity.

We always take Castiel's speech to Dean in S4 when he says that he "has doubts" to mean that he doubts heaven's plan - doubts Uriel - thinks Dean might be right. BUT, he could also very well mean that he has doubts that God was right about humans being worthy of heaven's protection. We don't know what he was doubting at that moment, in those very early days, we don't know if Dean increased those doubts or vanquished them. We just know that Cas' life was forever and irrevocably altered when he saved Dean from Hell.

ANYWAY, Castiel killing himself (sounds weird) to me was a full acceptance that he has the capacity for both good and evil acts, but that it's his WILL that matters - we are the same, and I accept that, and I'm going to use that very sameness - that very ability to be brutal and remorseless - to kill this presentation of me that is acting counter to what I currently WILL.

kailita
May. 16th, 2018 01:04 am (UTC)
Agree 1000% about the weak characterization of Mary. That has probably been my biggest disappointment about seasons 12 and 13, mostly because there's just so much potential there that they're not exploring. :(

I'm interested in Castiel's ability to be ruthless...I think we've seen it before, and I think we even saw a glimpse of it when he killed Billie. But all of that just went...nowhere? Like there were no real consequences or reckonings for the character. I've been confused about Castiel's arc for the last couple of seasons. I like his surrogate father role with Jack, and I would be interested in seeing that intersect with his take-no-prisoners-intensity that we've seen before. But none of that has really paid off yet. And what about the Empty? Is any of that going to come back or mean anything? There seem to be a lot of loose threads with Cas right now. But maybe I'm just not picking up on them, because I'm watching the season so slowly? (Again, one of the benefits of binging.) Are you seeing a connection there that I'm missing this season?
hells_half_acre
May. 16th, 2018 04:05 am (UTC)
No, I don't think you're missing anything. It all feels rather disjointed to me too, and like they're not following through on any of Castiel's character development/arc/experiences/etc.

I mean, SOMETIMES I pick up on things more when I'm rewatching, like S12 was slightly better on rewatch than it was the first time round (hard to believe, I know) - but, I'm not sure if S13 is going to be any less disjointed when I rewatch it. It certainly doesn't feel that way now.

I think Carver was better at hiding the poor plotting than Dabb is. I think he did that by charging through way more plotlines, so things went by too fast for us to really clock that they didn't make any sense. Dabb, meanwhile, seems to pick up and then drop plotlines and seemingly meander without purpose of plan. Which is fine if it's being tracked, but right now it feels like it's being forgotten, so it just ends up feeling disappointing.
kailita
May. 16th, 2018 05:41 am (UTC)
I can believe S12 was better on rewatch (especially with your headcanon rewrites). I still think S13 has been better overall than 12, and that's encouraging to me. There were only a few episodes on S12 that I found tolerable, and I can only think of one that I really enjoyed ("Regarding Dean")(though, eh, now that I think about it, there were some interesting tracks laid in "Asa Fox" and the one with the witch twins...I just didn't feel like anything ever developed out of that), but I have enjoyed several episodes from S13, even when I feel that there are missteps. But maybe you feel differently? Especially with your vehement hatred of Lucifer. :)

That's a really interesting point re: Carver and Dabb. Now that we're in S5 of the podcast, I'm really trying to savor the end of the Kripke years and the true climax of the show, for all intents and purposes. BUT...I'm actually very excited to talk about the later seasons, and to compare the later showrunners. I feel very familiar with Sera Gamble, but Carver and Dabb are still kind of enigmas to me, even though they both wrote for the show for a long time. I really want to analyze what the different showrunners prioritize, and what makes that work or not work. Because you're right, season 8 was a mess of plots - and yet the end of 8 climaxed in a catharsis that made me WEEP. Season 9 was the first season where all of the angel nonsense made me really start to wonder, "Okay, Show, have we officially gone off the rails...?" But the AGONY of the brother relationship was so central that I couldn't stop watching, even when it was ripping me apart. That was all Jeremy Carver. Dabb's seasons haven't sparked any of that in me. Is it really the pacing of the plotlines? Or the centrality of the brother stories? Or something else?
hells_half_acre
May. 16th, 2018 06:50 am (UTC)
I guess I was kinda focused in on plot-disjointed-ness as a measure when I said that I wasn't sure that S13 would get better on research, and implied it was worse than S12. I don't actually think that's true OVERALL. I just found that S12's plot was more coherent when I rewatched it (though, that's not to say that it wasn't still riddled with holes - just that I could track intentions a little better.)

I actually agree with you that S13 has felt better than S12 - EXCEPT in Mary's plot, I'd argue - but we've gotten a lot of stuff that I love, relational development between Sam and people-other-than-Dean, an acknowledgement of Sam's trauma, the return of Gabriel (and I'm not taking his death here as reality, I don't care what anyone says), and the exploration of a change of morality (through Rowena's plot).

So, I'm not saying it's been terrible by any means - but yes, I still want Lucifer to die in a fire. I actually had dinner tonight with a new friend and discovered that they love Supernatural too (been watching it since episode 1 aired) and they LOVE Lucifer. Oh the RESTRAINT I SHOWED (which was probably still not restrained enough.)

One thing I'll say for Dabb is that he's really trying to explore what you can do with the show WITHOUT the brother's being in bitter conflict, and I really appreciate that. Now, I've seen some criticism that doing so sidelines the Winchesters in their own story in favour of exploring conflict in secondary characters, but I'm not entirely sure I agree with that. Anyway, depending how this season finale goes, that two season era may be over, but we'll see. I HAVE enjoyed that about Dabb's run. Carver really had some contrived conflicts just to keep the tension (*cough*frontendofS8*cough*) and it drove me nuts.

But yes, I've been dipping into older episodes lately because my friends have been bingeing the entire series and sometimes I go chill with them (they've reached S9 now), and it was really interesting to watch some of those Gamble episodes again, because I really haven't since the dvds for them came out. (Of course, Kripke's seasons I'm partially re-exploring through your podcast, and partially they're just lodged in my brain because I've watched them A LOT).... and yeah, it'd be interesting to compare the showrunning styles. Though, Gamble I'd sort of want to judge on S6 alone, since I've heard from backstage sources that S7 (much like the last 3 episodes of S11) was a gong-show in the writer's room because of showrunner-exits-and-changeover.)
kailita
May. 15th, 2018 04:26 am (UTC)
Also, out of pure curiosity - what do you typically drink to get drunk when you're writing these? Haha.
hells_half_acre
May. 15th, 2018 05:35 am (UTC)
Wine.

Usually I watch the show at my friends' place, and they make their own wine, so we have a glass of wine with dinner - and then we have one or two (sometimes three) glasses after dinner too. I don't USUALLY drink on my own, so if there's a week where I'm watching the episode alone, I'll be sober for it. BUT, I'm housesitting for my sister this week, and she left me a bottle of wine to enjoy while I'm here, and then my friend knew that I'd be facing the finale without her to rant to, so she sent me off with a bottle of wine to compensate.

So, this episode and the next episode will be rare occasions when I suspend the "never drink alone" rule. Which, I'm not sure if that was drilled into anybody else's head as a child, but growing up I was always told THAT was what made you an alcoholic, if you drank non-socially. And to this day I just feel like "why am I doing this?" whenever I try to have a drink when I'm alone in my apartment. (Being at my sister's place makes it a little easier, because it sort of feels like I'm on vacation, so I'm allowed to indulge in "vacation" things.)

Wow, what a really long winded answer to a simple question - the answer is wine. (Also, that I'm a lightweight) :P
kailita
May. 16th, 2018 01:15 am (UTC)
That's so cool that your friends make their own wine!'

My mom grew up Baptist, so in our house "never drink alone" was more like "never drink EVER." ;) I drink non-socially all the time, because I hate being social, haha. Roommate also does this, so we have discussed before if maybe we're alcoholics and we don't know it. But since I never drink enough to be hungover and I haven't noticed any kind of dependency, I think I'm okay - and I'm going to guess that you're probably in the clear too. ;) Also, it makes for great episode recaps. Also also, let's be real, you are going to need fortification for whatever is coming in the finale...
hells_half_acre
May. 16th, 2018 04:14 am (UTC)
Yes, I think having one or two drinks alone is actually fine - it's only a problem if you can't go a day or more without it, and/or it starts negatively impacting your life - still, it's so drilled into my head, that I can't help but feel super weird about it.

My roommate in university was a Baptist - we went to a wine tasting once (it was an organized outing with our department) and it worked out well for me, because I got twice as much wine!

She would also give me the "judgement eye" when she'd drag me out to parties that I didn't want to go to, so I'd chug the first alcohol I came into contact with to try to make the experience bearable. I mean, honestly, I TOLD her I didn't want to go out, what did she expect me to do to get through the night. :P

And getting through the night is indeed what I'll be doing Thursday! I've got a bottle of wine already set aside for it!


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