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Rewatch S10: Black (10x01)

HAPPY HALLOWEEN! It's a perfect day to start my S10 rewatches, I think. Let's see if I can get one done before I go out tonight.

This year, my disguise is as a woman with blisters on at least 50% of her throat. I've really committed to this costume, let me tell you... though, I have to say that the blister level has blessedly gone down from the 70% it was earlier this week. My point is, I'm SLIGHTLY miserable. It hurts to live.

So, let's rewatch some S10

Black

Heartbreaker was an interesting tune to choose for the Road So Far.

I was thinking, as I popped the disc in, that I think one criticism I have about the direction that they go with Demon!Dean is that they tend to go for comedy rather than the sort of... benign sinster-evil that they could have explored. I mean, the route they took makes for an interesting thought process too - is Demon!Dean really evil or is he just "playing" evil? Is his really gentle evil the MOST evil that Dean is capable of? That's kind of adorable, but doesn't fit with Dean The TORTURER that Kripke gave us, which was the route that Dean actually took the LAST time he was on his way to demonhood. If we really had a new demon on our hands made from Dean's soul, wouldn't we get Alistair's apprentice rather than the karaoke king? Now, maybe we eventually see shades of that, or maybe we don't, I guess I should comment on the actual episode... and maybe that route would just be too dark for even just the 3 episode arc that we get Demon!Dean for... but still, my favourite episode remains On The Head of a Pin, and I would have loved a more sinster route for Demon!Dean.

Demon: "I heard the rumours. I said, 'no, that can't be, a Winchester? One of us?' But it's true isn't it? Whatever soul you had, whatever boyscout code you cuddled up at night, it's all gone. Leaving what? Look at you!"
- "Always be prepared?" Do boyscouts have other codes? "Do no harm" is doctors right? Or is that a fictional one from somewhere.
- Anyway... I kinda love this opening, again, I don't think they commit to it as much as they should, but I love the fact that the demon has heard that a Winchester is a demon and doesn't believe it until Sam starts torturing her... and then she's like, damn, it's true. Only, he's the human one. Delicious comment on evil right there.
- So, yeah, instead of Dean the Torturer, we get Sam the Torturer. It's pretty neat, I gotta admit. I wish they had explored it a little more.

4 weeks later.
- What did I mark this in the timeline as? Gah, I'll check after. I probably did it right. I always do it right, mainly because I second guess myself all the time. (I checked, I'm good at what I do. I don't know why I never remember that.)

Sam looks good with a little bit of stubble. I wish he'd do that more often. Also, I bet it's hard to shave with his left.

"Sammy Let Me Go"
- Yeah, like that was ever going to work, Dean. :P

And poor Cas is on his own in some cabin. I always just assumed they split up to cover more ground - with Castiel traveling around looking for Dean, and Sam primarily staying at the Bunker on research duty (which he tends to excell at - case and point, he just found something.)

But, I do feel bad that Cas is quite clearly dying, and no one is around looking after him. And even now, when Sam phones him all excited about the case and then realizes that Cas sounds like he's dying, Sam's plan is to just tell Cas that it's actually nothing... which, well, I suppose it keeps Cas from expending energy trying to help, which we all know he would, so maybe this really is the best way for Sam to look after Cas - is to keep him in wherever that cabin/motel room is and keep him resting. It's not like Sam can call off the hunt for Dean in order to bring Cas soup, neither one of them would stand for that.

Cas: "Sam, you can't blame what that demon did to your shoulder on me. You were out of-"
Sam: "I'm not. I'm not blaming anything on you. What happened, happened..."

- I like that cut-off sentence from Cas, because "You were out of-" could end a lot of ways... reach, control...
- Also, they totally just turned Osric Chau into a demon.

Sam: "You need to be worrying about yourself, I really shouldn't have bothered you."
Cas: "How are you, Sam?"
Sam: "Good. I'm alright. I'm just tired, you know. Be better when we get him back, after I kick his butt."
Cas: "I miss him."
Sam: "Yeah."
Cas: "Why would he just disappear?"
Sam: "Who says he had a choice?"
Cas: "Then who wrote the note? Do you think there's any chance, any chance at all that Dean is still..."
Sam: "..even remotely Dean?" *hangs up*

- First off, say goodbye to your angel friend before hanging up, Sam! It's only polite.
- Secondly, I actually really love the Sassy-friendship, and I think this part of the conversation actually displays it. Remember when Sam first met Cas, he was EXCITED. And here, we see that Sam once again called Cas IN EXCITEMENT. He didn't actually think about Cas' health, because he just thought "I have to share this news with the other person on this planet who loves my brother!" and he called Cas. And Cas gets that too, because when Sam is like "I shouldn't have called" Cas GETS why he did and he asks how Sam is, and he tells him he misses Dean... he let's Sam know that Sam is not alone. I mean, that right there is the core of any friendship... and it's the exact same thing that Cas did when Sam excitedly reached out his hand to greet Cas and Cas chose to shake it. He may have been inadvertedly a dick by mentioning the demon-blood thing, but Cas still made that decision back in S4 to accept Sam's attempt at friendship... and yeah, I've got Sassy feelings, okay... even if they're only friendship ones.

I really do love the song I'm Too Sexy. It's really fun to sing along to when you're cleaning your house.

Crowley: "Jerk."
Dean: "Bitch."
Ann Marie: "Get a room, you two"
Crowley: "Had a room, until you two soiled it."

- Ah, I remember how up in arms the fandom got at Dean calling someone else a bitch. Which, was the point. But still, an example of the comedy route for Demon!Dean, as the sinster route would have been for Dean to call Sam a bitch with a whole entirely different intonation. (sounds way dirtier than I mean it, but you still get my point.)
- Also, I actually do love the open-ended references in this episode that suggest that Dean and Crowley may or may not be sleeping together - whether while sharing girls or not - I know that's probably super controversial, because I'm generally not a shipper and DEFINITELY not a Dean/Crowley shipper... but at the same time, I'm also always had Bisexual!Dean as my headcanon, and if being a demon means that Dean no longer has inhibitions than it makes sense to me that he actually MIGHT do something like that. So, to me, it's not queer-baiting or poking fun at the ship or whatever, it's actually a possibility that they're letting the audience decide on one way or another.

Yeah, I just can't reiterate enough how much more powerful this season opener would be with a more sinster rather than a comedic Demon!Dean.

Then Dean punches the shit out of Ann Marie's ex-boyfriend. And yeah, that's actually not going to endear you to her, as it's kinda scary.

Hannah arrives... so, this whole Rogue Angel storyline doesn't make much sense to me. I mean, why let Cas stay on earth but all other angels can't? Is Cas ALREADY a "not angel"? This is never addressed. If Cas has been excommunicated from Heaven already, why use him as a soldier? Why allow him freedom? Why keep him alive when you kill other rogues who refuse to return to heaven?

Now, this similtaneously fight between Dean in real time and Dean on the surveillance tape that Sam is looking at is pretty damn awesome and I love it.

The thing that gets me emotionally is that when Sam sees the demon-eyes on the tape. He doesn't think "Dean is a demon" he thinks "a demon has stolen my brother's dead body." To him, this both quashes his hopes that Dean is somehow alive and left the note against his will, and it proves that something (Crowley) TOOK Dean's body. Which, yeah, just, super heartbreaking. The truth is much worse in that Sam's brother's soul IS demonized at the moment. It's not like his soul is in heaven and his body is being used.

Oh yeah, COLE! I'd momentarily forgotten about him.

I guess I'm in a minority or something, but I really like him. I mean, I too, think it's ridiculous that they cast a 40 year-old actor for a character that should only be 26, but I like the actor and I can suspend disbelief and assume that, given his military background, he's lived a very rough last thirteen years.

Hannah: "You're dying, Castiel. You need more grace."
...
Cas: "And another angel should die, so that I can be saved? Is this really so hard to understand?"

- I often wonder what Hannah is proposing here. Again, some clarification would have been nice - because, IS she advocating that Castiel pop another angel? Does Castiel's life outweigh the life of any other angel, and if it does, why doesn't Hannah volunteer? Or is she simply suggesting that he 'take it easy' while she herself has demanded that he help her hunt down rogue angels. It doesn't make sense? Does she already plan to sacrifice a rogue angel for Castiel's continued existence? Who does that work with her supposed morality? Is Castiel's continued existance/freedom from heaven a product of the fact that some angels, like Hannah, still revere him due to his previous resurrections/connections with acts of God?

Ah, the store clerk! I think this dude actually recently won a local Canadian award for this performance. I do love this character.

Crowley: "Moose, took you long enough. Your brother and I were starting to wonder if you'd hit another dog, you know."
- Ouch.
Sam: "My brother is dead, Crowley. I know you have some freakin' demon parading around in his meatsuit, and believe me you are going to pay for that."
Crowley: "Moose, moose, I'm afraid you haven't allowed yourself to dream quite big enough yet. Your brother is very much alive, courtesy of the Mark, the only demonized soul inside him is his and his alone. A little more twisted, a little more mangled beyond human recognition, but I assue you, all his."

- Ah, the truth, and I love how Sam just continues talking, because he's doing something here and can't get side-tracked.

Crowley: "...You don't care that he's a demon. Heck, you've been a demon, we've all been demons. No, it's that he's with me and he's having the time of his life. You can't stand that he's mine."
Sam: "He's not your pet."
Crowley: "My pet? He's my best friend. My partner in crime. They'll write song about us, graphic novels, the misadventures of Growley and Squirrel - Dean Winchester completes me and that's what makes you lose your chickens."

- It's interesting, because I don't know how much of Crowley's idea here is his own psychology (Crowley's always kinda been lonely) and how much he's actually right. I think Sam's mostly concerned about what human!Dean would want and Human!Dean would not be Crowley's bestfriend and would not want any version of himself being Crowley's best friend, nor would human!Dean want to end up a demon. So, I think Sam is primarily concerned with keeping human!Dean's wishes and so he has to find Dean and save him. That being said, when you cling as hard to someone as Sam clings to Dean, you ARE going to get jealous/mad when that someone seemingly chooses to spend 100% of their time with another person and they dump you... now, of course, them being temporarily a demon probably explains everything though, so it's more like "damn, I gotta snap them out of that so that they come back to me." Of course, in real world scenarios where people don't become demons, you often can't undo a personality change - so, you just have accept that your husband is no your ex-husband and get a divorce already, because he's shaking up with his new woman whether you like it or not.

Back to Cas and Hannah, tracking the rogues...

Daniel seems like such a nice guy. It sucks.

Daniel: "The trick is to find the special spot, just outside the run, where the big ones, the smart ones, are holding low."
Cas: "Do they, do they put up much of a fight?"
Daniel: "The ones who truly want to be free, they do."

- Aw, metaphors.

Hannah: "...all of us serve at Heaven's command"
Daniel: "But that was before the Fall, wasn't it."
Hannah: "You are an angel, once and forever."
Daniel: "Dropped, unwillingly, unknowingly, into a land that celebrate the free, the individual. For the first time in thousands of years, I have choices, and with each choice, I begin to discover who I really am."

- It's interesting, because in Daniel we see an aspect of what it would be like for some of the angels who were never part of Castiel's Garrison - who were never stationed, as observers or otherwise, on earth. Daniel is having more of an Anna reaction to being exposed to earth - he can see the freedom enjoyed by humans who aren't made to be obediant to an absent god, who don't have to wait for orders, or stick to orders that are thousands of years old and unlikely to ever change thanks to said absent god. And he wants to join them. Anna, a full angel, carved out her grace and fell - but even then, she knew that once she was found, she would be hunted and killed by Heaven for her treachery. So, really, Daniel suffers the same fate. Heaven IS returning to the law it had at the beginning of S4, before the apocalypse - the only hiccup is Castiel and the inconsistent way they treat his existence.

Crowley: "...the Mark needs to be sated, otherwise-"
Dean: "Otherwise I turn into demon, yeah, I got that memo six weeks ago."
Crowley: "Just trying to help."

- So, Crowley says that he's just trying to keep Dean "sharp" for the future... and that's why he's been sending the demons to attack Dean every so often. But, before he says that, he says the above, that the Mark needs to be "sated" - and Dean is like "yeah, or I turn into a demon, which I already am, so what's the deal?" and doesn't get it. But I think Crowley is keeping Dean as demon-lite as he can. The more Dean doesn't kill, perhaps the more evil/uncontrollable the murder-lust becomes. We see that with Cain later in the season where after over a century of not murdering, Cain decides to murder every single person on earth who is remotely related to him. Why had he never done that between Abels death and 2014? Well, because he had never stopped killing here and there until the 1800s when he met Claudette, or whatever her name was. Then, after a hundred years of not killing, Cain was like, you know what... MASS MURDER THE LIKES OF WHICH THE WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN AND NO ONE CAN STOP ME!

I do love how after Crowley's speech to Sam about how much fun Dean and him are having, he then has this speech to Dean about how he can't stand another moment in the shitty bar.

Crowley: "...I guess he'll be here by morning, at the latest."
Dean: "You sold me out. Well, that's just lovely."
Crowley: "I don't know what's going on with you, I truly don't. Sold you, out? Try doing you a favour..."

- I love how Crowley KNEW that Sam was tracing the call. This is what makes Crowley a good villain when he's a good villain. He's smart. There's nothing worse than the villain LETTING you think you're winning.
- Also, I think that using Sam is probably the only way that Crowley can get Dean to move on from that bar, so it was good thinking on his part. Even if it backfires, it was his best shot.

Cole and Sam meet! Again, car just dies and someone happens to pull over right away... that person should not be trusted.

During the Karaoke sequence, Dean switches shirts inexplicably twice.

Ann Marie: "... and maybe for a second there, I thought you were a good guy playing bad. I don't know, it doesn't matter. Maybe you're just-"
Dean: "The kind of guy who sleeps with every skank in every small-town dive that he passes through. Well, you really do know how to read people, because that sure as hell does sound like me."

- So, what we get with Demon!Dean in this season isn't Dean the Torturer from S4, but rather, Dean the Internalized Self-Hatred. Like, Human!Dean may sleep with waitresses in dive bars in small towns, but in general, he views those girls and lovely human beings who he is lucky to be able to spend that time with. (See the more recent 11x04 for proof)... do you know who sees them as skanks? Society. So, you could say that Demon!Dean is saying this just to be cruel to Ann Marie, but I think there's a method of truth to it - that Dean has internalized the way society views him, and Ann Marie.... he does that with other aspects of his personality when he's human too, after all, most notably his own intelligence, whcih he denies because with his lifestyle and upbringing, society has put a stupid label on him and Dean actually internalizes that 90% of the time and rolls with it. Also, I mean, it goes without saying that Dean has massive self-esteem issues and always has.

Angels at a campfire.

Daniel wants to learn from humans, Hannah is like "Humans are dumb" and Castiel is like "uh... he has a point?" It's kinda awesome, before the other angel shows up and starts beating up people.

And Castiel has to kill Daniel. It's very sad.

Cole and Sam sitting in an abandoned barn or something...

Cole tells us about the first time he broke his arm and this is the one and only time he mentions having an older brother "Davie" ...interesting.

Sam: "Are you a hunter?"
Cole: "Sure, we can go with that. Hunting your brother counts, doesn't it?"
Sam: "I wouldn't do that."

- I love the truth of that.

Cas: "They just wanted to be left alone."
Hannah: "Without rules, there's chaos. Out of chaos rise angels like Naomi, Bartholomew, Metatron..."
Cas: "Well, perhaps I've just been down here with them for too long. There's seemingly nothing but chaos, but not all bad comes from it - art, hope, love, dreams..."
Hannah: "But those are human things."
Cas: "Yes."

- I wonder about this, because does it means that Cas can feel human things? I mean, I know angels SEEM to have human emotions, but I spoken aboout this before and how I think it's actually just a guise of emotion, or a weak substitute.
- Or, rather, does it mean that Cas recognizes these things as good, and the need to protect them - and the wonder that they are available to humans but not to angels. That with angels chaos only breeds bad things, whereas humans can be produce good as well - is Cas wondering what it wrong with angels, whether or not it's something they can fix? something they can learn? Cas once believed that angels could learn free will, which to me indicated that CAS had. But there's also an arguement to be made that Cas might be the only angel capable of free will, that he was created to be that way purposefully... now, you could also argue that angels have demonstrated repeatedly that they ARE capable of free will, but not of the morality needed to steer it... hence Balthazar's hedonism, Lucifer's murdering ways, the entire faction war... Gadreel's choice to KILL A PROPHET, something directly against his core orders/programming when he decided to join Metatron. So, what makes the difference? Do angels lack empathy and therefore morality? Or is it something else? Can it be taught or are they doomed? Is Castiel a human-angel or can he just recognize where angels, including himself, are lacking?

Dean: "No, you listen to me. There's no trade. There's meet-up, there's no nothing. Except the guarantee that somewhere down the road I will find you and I will kill you."
...
Dean: "...He knows me, and he knows damn sure that if I am one thing, I am a man of my word."

- And Cole's plans go out the window.
- But we learn that although Dean is too much of a demon to save Sam. He's not too much of a demon to not seek revenge for Sam's death.

And that's episode one completed! Approx. 2.5 hours, not bad!

As usual, let me know your throughts in comments. And I apologize for any and all spelling errors. I don't have a spell checker and I didn't actually proofread this one.

Comments

( 20 comments — Leave a comment )
borgmama1of5
Nov. 1st, 2015 03:39 am (UTC)
they totally just turned Osric Chau into a demon.

Yes LOL!

The angel storyline has no logic to it anymore, which is why it is very annoying.

Jensen talked about playing demon!Dean as 'lighter' than Dean because demon!Dean simply didn't care, didn't feel any of Dean's guilt. And that nasty crack at Anne Marie (mirrored in 10.23 when he calls out the vampires victim as being dressed like a hooker) is supposed to alert us all of how evil demon!Dean really is, because real Dean is more respectful to women...but the 'amoral' demon!Dean really isn't as scary as he should have been, at least until we get to the bunker in episode 3 and he's stalking Sam.

But outside circumstances--needing Dean to be back to normal by episode 200--unfortunately required a truncated demon!Dean and therefore this hybrid is what we got...

When I did my rewatch, I was really struck by how much the first 3 episodes are one long episode, they tracked much better viewed right after each other than with a week between to give us time to analyze and puzzle over them...
hells_half_acre
Nov. 1st, 2015 06:44 am (UTC)
Yes, the angel storyline is frustrating, because I like the angels as characters and there's great potential there, but it's like nothing is ever thought out at all.

Yes, I guess that's my problem with demon!Dean, he was played with an absence of Dean's drive towards heroism and his guilt, but there was no addition of anything... like, Soulless!Sam without Sam's empathy, was consumed with cold-calculation. I guess Dean becomes filled with self-loathing, because the heroism that usually kept that at bay is absent. But, I don't know, it'd be cool if there was something sinister added too... or allowed to bloom....everyone has their more sinister moments, and we do get it a little in the next few episodes I guess, so maybe I'm complaining too early or I just wanted more. But I think I like the demon!Dean in ep3 the best, when he really becomes a frightening murdering thing.

I think they still could have done something cool in just three episodes, or just two. I mean, they did so much with On The Head of a Pin... and that was just a glimpse at a torturer (both Dean and Alistair).

I think they've done that both S10 and S11 - made the first three eps their own little mini movie, before restarting again with a motw in S4. I'm not complaining, though I agree it is killer to wait a whole week for the next episode.

We'll see when I have time for the next rewatch. ;)
supernutjapan
Nov. 1st, 2015 09:51 am (UTC)
I agree they should have shown more dangerous Dean - I didn't really like karaoke Dean. 3 episodes really wasn't enough to develop the "evil" in Sam either. They really needed to take more time with that to be more convincing with both Sam and Dean.

I like Cole too <3 Hope to see more of him.

The bit about how Sam feels about Dean being with Crowley is pretty deep stuff - including the real life bit. Sam definitely was acting very jealous or upset about Dean spending so much time with Crowley in Season 9 as well. Dean spending time with Crowley there began when Sam told Dean to leave and Dean no longer had Sam as his anchor. Of course it grew worse after the mark, but it's interesting to think that Dean without Sam turns to the dark side - and come to think of it, Sam turns dark without Dean too. Even back while Dean was in Hell, but again here.

The more Dean doesn't kill, perhaps the more evil/uncontrollable the murder-lust becomes.
I think that's a good bet. Just as when he was human, aye?

we learn that although Dean is too much of a demon to save Sam. He's not too much of a demon to not seek revenge for Sam's death.
Or, he just knows Cole won't kill Sam? Thinking back on the demons we've seen in previous seasons, demons do seek revenge (YED and his son/daughter is one). They do feel a sort of love as well(How about those two demons in Sin City?) So, just because he feels revenge, or even feels melancholic in a future ep (the next one?) as he plays his mom's favorite song on the piano, doesn't mean he isn't completely demon. Very interesting to think about though!


hells_half_acre
Nov. 1st, 2015 09:08 pm (UTC)
Yeah, that's been the pattern with both of them - without each other, they both turn dark, no matter what state their in. Dean first learned that back in S5, but the Mark, (or guilt before it), makes him forget.

And it's true, demons do like their revenge and they do feel things - I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. It's just more of a... cold thing, something kind of callously possessive, I suppose. Like, you don't care for the thing, but if someone else touches the thing, you get angry. I mean, obviously, the self-loathing is still there, so there's not a lack of emotion like there is with soullessness. Demons ARE souls, after all, they're just warped ones.
shadowsong26
Nov. 2nd, 2015 04:39 am (UTC)
Yay rewatches!

Good point about how they did Demon!Dean. I like some of it--mostly when he's actively cat-and-mouse fighting in the next two episodes. But it is a little odd given his history. Seeing Alistair's apprentice again would have been cool, but I'm not actually sure it would have worked any better, tbh? Partly, as you said, b/c it might have been too dark, but I also think handling the aftermath would have been a lot harder. On the other hand, it might have made the second half of the season a little more cohesive, if Alistair's Apprentice was hanging over their heads...IDK.

Agreed about the opening!

So, yeah, instead of Dean the Torturer, we get Sam the Torturer. It's pretty neat, I gotta admit. I wish they had explored it a little more.

Agreed. But I felt there was a lot of lack-of-exploration with S10, which may tie into my feelings on a much darker Demon!Dean...

Agreed with all your points about the Sam and Cas conversation.

I'm also always had Bisexual!Dean as my headcanon, and if being a demon means that Dean no longer has inhibitions than it makes sense to me that he actually MIGHT do something like that. So, to me, it's not queer-baiting or poking fun at the ship or whatever, it's actually a possibility that they're letting the audience decide on one way or another.

Agree! Also, I sometimes think that while Dean is definitely bi he only ever acts on his attraction to women, largely due to hypermasculinity hangups. Although I don't ship much in this fandom, either, so that may contribute to my headcanons...

Regarding the 'Rogue Angel' storyline...I think I'd understand it more if it hadn't been dropped so abruptly. I think Cas may get a pass because he's already dying, and maybe this is acknowledged as his retirement or whatever? Or maybe he's briefly back at Hero Status, the way he was to his followers in S6, thanks to taking down Metatron, so he's allowed to do what he wants, as long as it's not actively interfering with the stability/leadership/affairs of Heaven. And then Hannah brings him in because of that hero/legend status, as it might make the rogues listen to him so they can be brought in without further bloodshed? I mean, I think that makes sense, I just wish Show had made it clearer...

I like Cole, too!

Agreed with all you said about Daniel and Anna.

- I love how Crowley KNEW that Sam was tracing the call. This is what makes Crowley a good villain when he's a good villain. He's smart. There's nothing worse than the villain LETTING you think you're winning.
- Also, I think that using Sam is probably the only way that Crowley can get Dean to move on from that bar, so it was good thinking on his part. Even if it backfires, it was his best shot.


Agreed on both points.

And on Sam's Idiot Ball moment with the car...

Interesting comments on Cas and Hannah and emotion/free will for humans vs. angels. I think it's not so much that angels lack emotion/empathy, but humans and angels have different emotional and/or perception spectrums? Because angels perceive/know more, but do feel certain kinds of love, esp. for each other. Witness, as messed up as they are, Gabriel and Lucifer, or the implications that Anna and Cas were close before she jumped ship...but it's different than humans how feel, and it doesn't really translate. And then perception is another question, because angels probably have several senses most humans don't, but would a human with enhanced perceptions but a human emotional filter see the same thing an angel does? How much does that play in? Or maybe that's why like that one healing angel who went off the rails in S9 go off the rails, because he might have an emotional template a little closer to humanity, but human empathy coupled with angelic perception = cannot handle what is seen? Or something...One of the things that fascinates me about speculative fiction is questions of non-human sentience, and Supernatural does sometimes address that with angels vs. humans. Because they do have some overlap, but not a lot...IDK. I'm not sure where this is going, sorry...

And we end on Dean's cool, casual promise of revenge, which is still kinda creepy, but might have been more if he'd been darker all episode.

Looking forward to the next rewatch!
hells_half_acre
Nov. 2nd, 2015 08:16 pm (UTC)
Yes, it's hard to say what would have worked and what wouldn't have. Perhaps what they did really was the best option - but, I don't know, part of me can't help but play the "what if" game.

And yes, that's what I meant by the fact that my headcanon is bisexual Dean. I meant that he's bisexual, but only ever acts on the attraction to women, largely due to the way he was raised in a hypermasculine environment.

And that's why I can have a bisexual!Dean headcanon but not actually ship Dean romantically with any male in the series.

Good thoughts about Cas! I think you're probably right. It's a quasi-retirement and a you-don't-bug-us-we-won't-bug-you type special treatment for an angel that the other angels probably can't 100 agree what to do with.

Re: angels and empathy. It's true, it's hard to accurately describe and capture different forms of sentience. I think you're onto something when you bring up the Healing Angel that went off the rails on earth - to me, his storyline suggested that when angels feel, they feel things muted in comparison to humans. So, the angel could recognize suffering, but his measuring of suffering based on angels made human suffering seem far worse than it was. So, what would be agony for an angel was just a bad Tuesday for a human.

Anyway, yeah, I'm not sure we'll ever get an answer to these questions, because it really is a matter of not knowing how angels actually perceive time and space and the inside of their own consciousness.
liliaeth
Nov. 2nd, 2015 06:04 am (UTC)
I've mentioned this before, but I think what we see with demonDean, is that Dean has no ambition that isn't guided by his ability to love and sense of responsibility. Remove both of those and you're stuck with a demon who for the first time in his life is having a vacation of any kind of responsibility.

It's also the main reason why Crowley picked Dean for the one to get the Mark, instead of Sam, because he thought it made Dean easier to control. Because a demonic Sam would be ruling hell within months. Sam has ambition guided by what he wants, while to Dean it's always been a burden forced on him
hells_half_acre
Nov. 2nd, 2015 08:08 pm (UTC)
That's a very good point about the difference between Sam and Dean when it comes to being demonized (hypothetically, in Sam's case). I think you're right on the money there - as we saw with the demon-blood, there's a part of Sam that LOVE the feeling of having power, that would very much quickly translate to power-over-others. And Sam's smart enough that if he set his sights on it, I'm sure he'd have the throne quickly.

Dean just goes on vacation - as you say, unburdened by responsibility, Dean doesn't seek it out - he avoids it even more.
liliaeth
Nov. 2nd, 2015 08:18 pm (UTC)
Uhuh, and it kinda becomes pretty obvious when you notice that Dean doesn't have an issue with Crowley sending demons after him, or hanging out with Crowley, until Crowley tries to get him to handle responsibility. Sure it's evil responsibility, but still, it's a burden that demonDean quite simply refuses.

It's also why he doesn't go after Sam, until Sam tries to cure him. Because he sees no need to hurt Sam, until Sam tries to forcefully return that burden of love and responsibility . He had no real ill thoughts of Sam, until Sam tried to end his 'vacation'.
hells_half_acre
Nov. 2nd, 2015 08:48 pm (UTC)
Very true. I'll totally credit you when I inevitably talk about this in the upcoming episodes. ;)
pushistyj_koshk
Nov. 6th, 2015 09:40 pm (UTC)
Yay! Rewatches!!! Did you end up buying this season or getting it as a present?

How are you now? Last year I stayed home as a semi-dead person who's had their wisdom tooth extracted and had a piece of meat instead of a jaw. This year I stayed home as a semi-dead person who probably has asthma or maybe doesn't. Yay!

* * *

Re: Sam looks good with a little bit of stubble. I wish he'd do that more often. Also, I bet it's hard to shave with his left.

Sam looks good in seasons 5 and 6 :)

* * *

Re: Also, I bet it's hard to shave with his left.

I bet it is. I can hardly do anything with my left. The only thing I can actually do with my left hand (and almost exclusively with my left hand) is hold a leash, because for some obscure reason dog is supposed to walk on the left of a human.

* * *

Re: "Sammy Let Me Go"

It was so sad. So sad!!!

* * *

Re: Also, they totally just turned Osric Chau into a demon

Wait, what? I haven't seen 10x01 since 2014 :)

* * *

Re: First off, say goodbye to your angel friend before hanging up, Sam! It's only polite.

Yes! Manners, Samuel! Were you raised in a barn? Oh...

* * *

Re: Remember when Sam first met Cas, he was EXCITED.

Yes, I do! And Castiel was mean to him! Because he didn't have a mind of his own.

* * *

Re: I really do love the song I'm Too Sexy. It's really fun to sing along to when you're cleaning your house.

Yeaaaah :) I can even handle any other Fight Said Fred's song because I have warm feelings for I'm Too Sexy :) I KNOW THE LYRICS!!!



* * *

Re: Oh yeah, COLE! I'd momentarily forgotten about him.

I have a confession to make. Judging by his interviews/podcasts/whatever I don't like Travis Aaron Wade as a person :(

* * *

Re: During the Karaoke sequence, Dean switches shirts inexplicably twice.

Huh...

* * *

Rewatches!!! YAY!!!!


Edited at 2015-11-06 09:42 pm (UTC)
hells_half_acre
Nov. 6th, 2015 10:05 pm (UTC)
Did you end up buying this season or getting it as a present?

I ended up buying it, but with money that I got for my birthday...so, it's kind of a present?

How are you now?

Recovered! I'm still waiting to hear back from the doc about what might be wrong with me - they're running some tests. This is medical mystery #1. Medical mystery #2 doesn't directly impact my life the way #1 does. Anyway, the good news is that for the moment, I am well. :)

The only thing I can actually do with my left hand (and almost exclusively with my left hand) is hold a leash, because for some obscure reason dog is supposed to walk on the left of a human.

Social conventions are weird. The only thing my left can do, (besides handle typing on the left side of the keyboard) is that it's really good at putting watches on my right wrist. Now, APPARENTLY, right handed people are supposed to wear their watches on their left wrist because the instinct is supposed to be to use your dominant hand to do it up - but, no one ever told me that as a child, so I trained my left hand to do up watches. Now, I don't even wear watches, so my left hand is back to being mostly useless.

Wait, what? I haven't seen 10x01 since 2014 :)

We find out during the phonecall with Cas that the explanation that they give for Sam's broken shoulder is that a demon did it. But IRL: Osric Chau.

es! Manners, Samuel! Were you raised in a barn? Oh...

Haha, so true. How many times do you want to bet that John called and hung-up without saying goodbye when they were growing up? No wonder Sam and Dean have horrible phone etiquette.

I have a confession to make. Judging by his interviews/podcasts/whatever I don't like Travis Aaron Wade as a person :(

Awww... that's too bad. I've never actually met him, but he seems like a nice enough dude to me. But, sometimes personalities just don't mesh well - I can't stand Sebastian Roche, for instance... and Jeremy Renner often comes across as a conceited dude-bro. But, whatever.



pushistyj_koshk
Nov. 7th, 2015 10:44 am (UTC)
Re: I ended up buying it, but with money that I got for my birthday...so, it's kind of a present?

It absolutely is :)

* * *

Re: Social conventions are weird. The only thing my left can do, (besides handle typing on the left side of the keyboard) is that it's really good at putting watches on my right wrist. Now, APPARENTLY, right handed people are supposed to wear their watches on their left wrist because the instinct is supposed to be to use your dominant hand to do it up - but, no one ever told me that as a child, so I trained my left hand to do up watches. Now, I don't even wear watches, so my left hand is back to being mostly useless.

I grew up knowing that you are supposed to wear a watch on your left wrist and it doesn't matter if you are a righty or a lefty - it's just the way it is. So I wear a watch on my let wrist. Except that I don't wear them :)

* * *

Re: We find out during the phonecall with Cas that the explanation that they give for Sam's broken shoulder is that a demon did it. But IRL: Osric Chau.

Ah.... I really did forget about that.

* * *

I've never actually met any public person, so what I think shouldn't matter :)
hells_half_acre
Nov. 7th, 2015 08:26 pm (UTC)
Oh weird, I totally learned it was a dominant hand thing - that people who are right handed wear them on the left and people who are left handed wear them on the right.

I suppose it also saves a bit of wear and tear on the watch, as you're likely to do more things with your dominant (right) hand and possibly smash up your watch more.

Ah well, I don't wear a watch anymore anyway.
pushistyj_koshk
Nov. 7th, 2015 09:33 pm (UTC)
There is actually a reason for that, it turns out:

Wristwatches with analog displays generally have a small knob, called the crown, that can be used to adjust the time and, in mechanical watches, wind the spring. Almost always, the crown is located on the right-hand side of the watch. This makes it inconvenient to use if the watch is being worn on the right wrist. Usually, therefore, watches are worn on the left wrist, even if the wearer is left-handed.
hells_half_acre
Nov. 7th, 2015 09:41 pm (UTC)
Huh, you know, that makes sense. I always wore analog watches too (and my first watch was actually a wind-up), but I still wore it on my right. I would just take it off to fiddle with the knob, hence why my left hand was so good at putting on and taking off watches, I suppose. :P
metallidean_grl
Nov. 21st, 2015 07:29 am (UTC)
I really did enjoy this episode. No secret I wasn't happy about demon!Dean. But I also didn't mind that Dean wasn't more evil. I rather enjoyed this take on demon!Dean. Someone, who finally, didn't have a care in the world and was living his life how he wanted to, not dictated by family, angels or destiny. I do think liliaeth stated it best in that Dean didn't have responsibility to drive him. Ever since Dean was 4 years old he had this responsibility, this burden on his shoulders as an older brother, a caretaker, a protector and now that he was a demon he was free of that and he was finally at a point in his life where he could what he wanted, when he wanted, where he wanted, and no one could kill him or overpower him or force him to do anything. So, when Crowley finally had had enough of the play and wanted Dean to work side by side with him in ruling Hell - no way in Hell was Dean ever going to do that. Crowley underestimated Dean where that was concerned. He first thought he would be able to manipulate Dean more easily than Sam, and keep him in tow, but Crowley really didn't understand or know what had motivated Dean all these years. Without having to live with the human emotions of Dean, demon!Dean could finally be free of all burden and responsibility.

I also liked that thought that liliaeth mentioned in how Sam would have jumped full in in ruling Hell and would have overpowered and killed Crowley probably within weeks and taken over his spot as King. That is a very interesting premise and something I do believe could have happened, especially after witnessing what Sam did without his soul in S6.

As for Crowley telling Sam that he and Dean were besties....I think he was doing that to bait Sam and hit him where he knows it would hurt the most. And yes, it does initially do its trick to bait Sam and make him jealous. But, if Sam were to really think about it, like you said, human!Dean would never want to hang out with the likes of Crowley, or spend any amount of time with him. So, while the mind tricks work, it also doesn't. Dean is using Crowley just as much as Crowley is using Dean. The only thing is, is that I think Crowley may still have some affect from the human blood and may actually be enjoying the camaraderie he is experiencing with Dean, but like I said, I don't think it went both ways.

As for the angel storyline, such a waste of story. They messed that one up badly. Dropped the rogue angel story without any real kind of resolution and while they did give us explanation that all angels needed to get back up to heaven, I don't completely understand why they would think it was necessary to track down and force angels back up to heaven that didn't want to go, or even resort to killing. None of that made sense. As for thoughts about angels feeling human things. True, angels were created to watch over humans and were created without feelings or emotions, but given the opportunity to be down among the humans I do believe it is possible for angels to learn of and start to feel emotions. I mean, look at Cas. He has come a long way since he has been among the humans, in particular, Dean and Sam. While he still is a little stiff, he has taken on a lot more of human emotions since he was first introduced.

Cole...he is an interesting character. I didn't care for him too much with his introduction. I thought he was cocky and putting himself in the middle of something that was way out of his scope of comprehension. Like a deer putting himself in the middle of a den of alligators. I did appreciate the promise Dean made him though about being a man of his word that he would eventually come and kill him, and then how Sam kinda concurred with that promise. The brothers really do know each other.
hells_half_acre
Nov. 23rd, 2015 11:03 pm (UTC)
He first thought he would be able to manipulate Dean more easily than Sam, and keep him in tow, but Crowley really didn't understand or know what had motivated Dean all these years.

That's an interesting point because it really pinpoints where Crowley's research/knowledge fails him - because he probably never even thought to ask himself "what motivates this man besides his brother?" Sam is always what Crowley used as leverage in the past - he got Dean to work for him in S6 by promising the return of Sam's soul, even though he couldn't follow through. But I don't think Crowley ever asked himself what motivates Dean beyond that, so while he probably knew he'd be losing the Sam-leverage with the change to demonhood, I don't think he really realized that he'd be losing ALL ability to manipulate.

I also liked that thought that liliaeth mentioned in how Sam would have jumped full in in ruling Hell and would have overpowered and killed Crowley probably within weeks and taken over his spot as King. That is a very interesting premise and something I do believe could have happened, especially after witnessing what Sam did without his soul in S6.

Yes, it really was an amazing point and spot on character-wise - because besides Dean, and responsibility, what motivates Sam the most is being IN CONTROL. It's why he always bashed heads with John and why Dean and he only get along when they're in an equal partnership. Sam doesn't follow orders well and doesn't like the idea of other people running his life... and he would have maintained that as a demon. Whereas Dean is motivated by Sam, responsbility, and a thrust for freedom - so when you take away the first two, you're just left with the thrust for freedom.

Anyway, I just reiterated the point again because I love it so much. It's a very good insight into what makes our boys tick.

The only thing is, is that I think Crowley may still have some affect from the human blood and may actually be enjoying the camaraderie he is experiencing with Dean, but like I said, I don't think it went both ways.

Agreed. I don't think Demon!Dean really cared who was around him, just as long as he could continue to do whatever he wanted whenever he wanted.

As for the angel storyline, such a waste of story. They messed that one up badly.[...] I mean, look at Cas. He has come a long way since he has been among the humans, in particular, Dean and Sam. While he still is a little stiff, he has taken on a lot more of human emotions since he was first introduced.

Agreed!

I did appreciate the promise Dean made him though about being a man of his word that he would eventually come and kill him, and then how Sam kinda concurred with that promise. The brothers really do know each other.

I felt the same way. I liked that aspect of the storyline, but I didn't really warm up to Cole until the episode later on where he got to see the full scope of who the Winchesters are and what they do.

borgmama1of5
May. 29th, 2017 02:00 pm (UTC)
Just finished year 10 of my complete series rewatch and now am treating mys elf to rereading your rewatches :)

Love the discussions of how demon!Dean's not-so-evilness makes sense when you look at his development as what you get when you take away Dean's sense of responsibility and Sam, and what kind of demon!Sam you'd get if he'd had the Mark!

And I wish the writers would have asked these (and the rest of your) questions and planned an angel arc that made sense...

...now, you could also argue that angels have demonstrated repeatedly that they ARE capable of free will, but not of the morality needed to steer it...So, what makes the difference? Do angels lack empathy and therefore morality? Or is it something else? Can it be taught or are they doomed?...
hells_half_acre
May. 29th, 2017 06:11 pm (UTC)
I also wish that.

But, in an interesting turn of events, you quoting my own words at me about Supernatural has caused me to solve a problem I've been having in one of the themes of the fantasy novel I'm trying to write - if evil doesn't exist, what do we call the absence of morality? Apparently, I posit here that it could be a lack of empathy. Now, I'm sure there are people living just fine with brain/mood conditions that leave them unable to empathize easily, and they're living just fine... so, the trick will be to discuss it without suggesting that they inherently lack morality as well. But, it's at least given me a path to walk down in terms of investigation. OR, I could scrap that idea altogether.

Anyway... back to SPN. It'd've been cool to explore these kinda of things in show. Alas.

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