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Okay, so I promised katsheswims that I'd do a reaction post about the Captain America movies. So, HERE IT IS!

Now, before I get into the movies, I should explain that I never saw the first movie when it came out. It just didn't appeal to me, probably partially because I judged it from the title - and, well, as a Canadian, movies that appear to be about how great America is really don't appeal to me. But, hey, that was my mistake, because it's really not about how great America is at all, if anything, the franchise is actually about how much America continually disappoints it's own ideals. Yay!

I'm getting ahead of myself, though... back to the narrative of my life...

Somewhere between the first CA movie and the Avengers, I joined tumblr. Now, tumblr is a horrible place full of horrible things... and sometimes these horrible things are gifs and fanart of things that I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH... but I keep seeing these awesome fanarts and these intriguing gifs, and I start getting curious...

Fanart got me to watch Sherlock. Gifs got me to watch Teen Wolf. And the terrible power of fanart AND gifts got me interested in Captain America: The Winter Soldier. And then complete spoilers for the ending of CA:TWS got me to read fanfic... because it was the situation that I absolutely love... listen, you all know that I'm a hurt/comfort whore... and basically, there is no kryptonic for me quite like stories about broken people who are never going to get better, but end up being okay anyway.

This is all to say that I was completely spoiled for the plot of both movies - more so The Winter Soldier than The First Avenger. That being said, I wasn't entirely sure what order things happened in.... and actually, my initial assumption about the order of scenes in The Winter Soldier left it with a fare bleaker ending then it actually had.

I just want to point out though that I'm not upset that I was spoiled and I don't think being spoiled hampered my enjoyment of the films - because if I HADN'T been spoiled, then I wouldn't have watched the films. And there were still surprises!

Now...on with the movies...

Captain America: The First Avenger

I was going to wait until I watched both movies before I talked about either one of them. But I happened to watch The First Avenger on Sunday, and then Sunday night I logged onto Skype for my kinda-routine chat with my BFF -  the Bucky to my Steve or probably more accurately (in terms of my lack of moral compass and ability to forget aspects of my own personality) the Steve to my Bucky.

Anyway, he asked me what I had done over the weekend, so I told him about seeing the movie, and then he asked me how I liked it - and I ended up typing out a review to him. So, here it is:

Captain America [:TFA] seemed rushed, like the sole purpose of the movie was to set up who Captain America was for the Avengers movie - but, because of the rush, we really didn't get enough moments to REALLY emotionally connect with him or his friends... which was a shame, because there was GREAT stuff in there for drama, but again, just too quick to really enjoy it. It would have been better as several films, I think.

I just think you really had two films - you had Steve becoming Captain America and then having to go rescue Bucky (end of film one) and then you had Steve forming the Howling Commandos and taking down Hydra (film two).

If they had divided it into two films, we would have gotten more time to really care about Bucky as much as Steve did...and then both his MIA and rescue (in film one) would have been more emotionally resonant and also his death (in film two) would have packed a harder punch. We also would have felt slightly more about Peggy, because they would have had time to establish more of a connection before Steve's "death." So, it would have been "great love-story is tragically cut-short" rather than just "girl I sort of flirted with will miss me, I guess."

Captain America: The Winter Soldier

So, this afternoon I met up with cordelia_gray for the first time ever and we went to go see the second film. It was her second time seeing it... and I FELT like it was my second time seeing it, because I had already seen a lot of it out of order and in gif form on Tumblr. But order is important guys... order is important...

This movie didn't suffer from the same problem as TFA, because it was just one story. Yay! We got time to know the characters and time to empathize with them... we got time to breath into the silences and time for words and actions to resonate. AND we still had lots and lots of action.

I really liked Sam. I hadn't known that he wasn't affiliated with SHIELD at all, and that was a really cool thing not to be spoiled about. Also, I just love the fact that he's a soldier like Steve, like...a traditional soldier like Steve is in his heart. Steve's feeling out of place in his life because Steve doesn't know how to be a superhero, he really only knows how to be a soldier. Sam's friendship winning quality with Steve, I think, is that Sam treats him like a soldier - but not only that, he treats him like someone who is capable of being broken, who IS broken (because he is), and who wants to help him as a fellow soldier who is willing to listen and try to understand, knowing full well the extraordinary circumstances surrounding Steve's particular trauma.

(Sidenote here, because I DO spend too much time on Tumblr: I don't want to offend anyone with my use of the word "broken", I don't mean to imply that people who are having a hard time with things are in anyway less than people NOT having a hard time or ACTUALLY broken.)

Everyone is broken in this movie... but the particular problem Steve has is that he's an idealized hero. He's supposed to be this symbol of morality and everything Americans want their country to be... and in reality he has absolutely no idea what he's doing, or if the people he's taking orders from are good or evil. Steve hates the Insight program whether it's under hydra OR under SHIELD. He hates it regardless... but he doesn't know what to do when the organization that Peggy helped create is doing something he doesn't agree with.

Anyway... before I get to Bucky, let's get talk about how heartbreaking Steve visiting Peggy was. Man, I mean, as you probably guessed, I didn't really end up feeling much about their romance in the first movie. I liked Peggy, there just wasn't enough time given to really get a feel for their relationship. This one scene in TWS blew the entirety of TFA out of the water though... I mean, geez, my heart.

Another thing before we get to Bucky...Natasha!

Can we just have whole movies about how awesome Steve and Natasha are as BFFs4life? I would enjoy that. I loved everything about this movie because it is 1)a movie without a romance driven subplot (take off the slasher goggles, I'm serious here), 2)a movie that has a man and a woman being platonic friends where neither one of them wants it to be more than friendship and have never wanted it to be more than friendship and never WILL want it to be anything more than friendship.

Really, I just want all the movies about Steve, Sam, and Natasha hanging out and being awesome.

(Sidenote here: I saw someone on Tumblr complain about how Sam kinda leers a bit at Natasha when he meets her - kind of obviously shows that he's interested in her romantically/sexually. They complained because it was the only time in the movie that Natasha was treated like an object - something that shows how cool Steve is, getting into a car with a sexy girl - like she's a status object instead of a person. But I LIKE the fact that Sam shows us that he finds her attractive in that first scene, because he then subsequently NEVER ACTS ON IT OR BRINGS IT UP AGAIN. Seriously, it's awesome. You know why he never acts on it or brings it up again - because it's not the damn TIME for shenanigans! People are injured and in danger and there is a world to save and, like any sane non-douchebag, Sam shelves anything not-important and treats Natasha like a fellow soldier/comrade-in-arms rather than something he wants to stick his dick in... I mean, just think of some movies you've seen where some guy starts off leering at a girl and then even when the world is going to shit around them, he's STILL hitting on her, like... seriously?!?Is THIS THE TIME?! What the hell kind of priorities do you HAVE?!)

So, speaking about how there's no romantic subplot in this movie... let's talk about Bucky.

Oh man, Sebastian Stan makes the SADDEST FACES EVER. Gifs don't even do it justice.

Bucky's story is the most heartbreaking... but I love the fact that they set it up in the context of Natasha trying to set Steve up. Okay, here me out - I love the fact that basically what we're being told is that Steve is LONELY. Natasha tries to remedy this the modern way - with romance... but Steve shuts that down, because he's Steve's not lonely for romance, he's lonely for people people who KNOW and/or UNDERSTAND him. Natasha's argument is that if Steve gives someone a chance, they can grow to know and understand him... Steve's argument is that everyone and everything he ever knew is dead (or suffering from dementia in a nursing home) and how the hell do you start over from that?

The reason I love this set-up is... (and again, please remove your slash goggles and shelve your bisexual!Steve headcanon for a moment, as I have done)... the reason I love this set-up is that they're AGAIN reiterating that romance is not the be all end all of love and happiness. That the solution to Steve's loneliness rests more in friendship than it does in romance. Just because you aren't in a romantic relationship doesn't mean you are by necessity lonely... moreover, a romantic relationship might not cure loneliness at all. Steve would be lonely whether he's dating the girl from statistics or not. He's not lonely because he isn't dating; he's lonely because ALL HIS FRIENDS ARE DEAD.

Even without Bucky, this movie is really about Steve making friends with both Sam and Natasha and starting to slowly move away from that loneliness.

With Bucky though, this movie just kicks ass all around... because Steve is being given the thing that he wanted most in the world via the worst way possible. Congratulations, you're best friend is alive, but he's been through 70 years of torture and brainwashing... at worst, he doesn't know who you are anymore, at best, he's a shell of the man you used to know.

And Bucky is awesome, because he's still a person. I was worried, going in, that they'd make him some sort of robot man... mainly because that's how a lot of fics portray him. But, I'm happy that's just quasi-poor characterization on the part of the fic writers (or at least character interpretation that I don't agree with.) Bucky still feels things, even as the Winter Soldier. Yeah, he's detached from the killing that he's doing, but so is Steve at this point... detachment happens to everyone given a smooth enough integration of violence into their lives (seriously, there's a fantastic book about it - Police Battalion 101. Read it.) But when Steve calls him Bucky, he responds "who the hell is Bucky?" Someone who is a robot does not add things like "the hell" to their speech, and they also don't look at you like you've just really confused them. Bucky still has a full range of emotions as the Winter Soldier. His life just sucks. That's all.

Anyway... things that I HADN'T been spoiled for (besides order of events): 1) Zola being still "alive" as a series of 1970s computers. What the hell?!!? 2) Fury allowing Steve to take full control of the situation and becoming Steve's subordinate rather than his director. 3)Hydra's plan. 4)Stan Lee's guest appearance. 5)Maria Hill being a complete badass and awesome.

A word about the ending...

First off, as heartbreaking as it is, I love the fact that Steve's plan, as soon as he knows Bucky is still alive, becomes "save Bucky or die"... seriously... there is no way you can convince me that Steve planned at any point to survive once he ordered Maria to fire.

Secondly, okay... so, when I originally was spoilered with all those gifs, I put them in the wrong order. Up until like, yesterday? Monday maybe? I thought that the scene with Bucky saying "But I knew him..." and then getting his memory wiped again was the last time we saw with him in the movie. That's right. I thought that this movie had the most depressing ending ever. Because I didn't realize that there was a break (for Bucky) between the encounter on the bridge and the encounter on the helicarrier. It was only when I saw the joke on tumblr about how when you saw bucky "at the end of the movie" at the museum, you didn't see the 20 minutes it took him to convince the security guard to let him through the metal detector... and I was like "Wait. Bucky goes to the museum at the END of the movie?!" And I remembered that I am FAR more cynical a human being that the majority of humanity and that perhaps I had gotten the order of events wrong.

My point is: The ending was awesome. As I told cordelia_gray, I'm actually kind of bummed that the next Captain America appearance is going to be an Avengers movie, because I want it to be the Steve & Sam Look for Bucky Adventures.

Oh, another note about Natasha... man, did I ever feel for her when she realized that she hadn't actually been working for the good guys after all. It's even a worse disappointment than Steve's disappointment about it, because Natasha was trying to MAKE UP for the evil she had done and she just accidentally did more evil. Also, I think she makes a bigger sacrifice than anyone does in this movie when she decides to back Steve's plan of leaking everything about everything...including her own past.

Also, one more random note: I love the fact that Steve shut down the "romanticize the past" train as soon as Sam brought it up. The past was not better than today. There was no golden age. Steve lived through the depression and a war while having health problems up the wazoo in a time when modern medicine was just getting its footing. A future where his amputee BFF can have a cool metal arm and they can look up anything they want to on the internet is WAY better than sleeping on couch cushions on the floor because they're broke and Steve's mother is dead of [probably some illness that we can now vaccinate against.]


Okay, I guess that's it. I realize that I just went on AT LENGTH about The Winter Soldier and BARELY touched on The First Avenger, but given what I DID say about The First Avenger, I would think the reason for that is obvious.

So, for those of you who have seen these movies - let me know your thoughts in comments!

I could probably go on much longer, but it's 10:30 and I have not had dinner yet because I came home from the movies and started typing this and that was two hour ago.

For people who don't want to be spoiled:
Captain America: The First Avenger - Good. Not great. Too much plot crammed into too little time.
Captain America: The Winter Soldier - Awesome. Must see. The only thing that would have made it better would have been a better first movie.

Comments

( 36 comments — Leave a comment )
liliaeth
May. 15th, 2014 08:01 am (UTC)
Well I put my thoughts on Captain America: Winter Soldier here

But I guess in total, I probably liked the first movie more than you did, though I do agree that the second one was far better than the first
hells_half_acre
May. 15th, 2014 07:16 pm (UTC)
Yup, basically I agree with everything you said about the CA:TWS.

Don't get me wrong though, I did enjoy the first movie! It was a good movie! I just couldn't help but think of how it could be even better as I watched it... which doesn't mean that it was bad, it just means that it could have been better.
(no subject) - liliaeth - May. 15th, 2014 07:20 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - hells_half_acre - May. 15th, 2014 07:27 pm (UTC) - Expand
dairygirl
May. 15th, 2014 12:02 pm (UTC)
I agree about not being sure if I would like Captain America or not but when I broke down and borrowed the movie from the library, I realized it was interesting (and enjoyed the ensemble cast although your point is well-taken--it would have been nice to spend more time with Bucky individually and the Howling Commandos collectively) so I impatiently waited for the new Captain America movie. Now I cannot wait to own it myself and keep watching it. The dynamic among Steve, Natasha and Sam is interesting and one that definitely kept me watching. I think it really hurt Steve that what he fought for in World War II, the defeat of Hydra, ended up disguising itself inside SHEILD, making the dubious morality of what he was seeing even more painful. Let's just say I am looking forward to the third Captain America movie and see where they take the characters.

Plus, I want to know where you are reading these awesome fanfiction stories you are really enjoying.
hells_half_acre
May. 15th, 2014 07:23 pm (UTC)
Agreed agreed agreed. I really want to both own the Winter Soldier movie and also really want it to be 2016 so that I can see the next Cap movie. :P

As for fanfiction - all I've been doing is going to AO3 and doing a search through the Captain America (Movies) fandom tag for completed works. I usually narrow it down by saying I want Steve/Bucky fic and sometimes I further specify that I want hurt/comfort... I first started sorting by kudos, so I got the (supposedly) the most loved fics first - but these days I just see what has been added since the last time I checked and sort by "update date".

But this is an example of one that I read before I saw the movies and enjoyed: http://archiveofourown.org/works/1533116
(no subject) - dairygirl - May. 16th, 2014 02:27 am (UTC) - Expand
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kuhekabir
May. 15th, 2014 12:52 pm (UTC)
I didn't much like the first movie either. Anything called Captain America immediately made me cringe. I only gave it a shot because I loved Thor and I thought...well...nothing better to do, why not?

And it was...ok. I also thought the waking up in the future would happen sooner but that was probably just me misunderstanding the trailer. I agree though that it might have made more sense to split the movie...or make it longer...but on the other hand, not everyone likes a long and emotional story telling.

I had no clue about Bucky being the Winter Soldier when I watched it...but even back then I thought...this feels as if the only reason they made the movie was to introduce a character...and not because they had anything to say about the character but just because otherwise people might not understand why there is a Captain America in the Avengers movie.

So yeah, 1st one...blah...

Winter Soldier? Epic...I totally loved it. My only complaint is that I don't have the DVD yet so that I can do an indepth watching where I am glued to the TV until I know everything...LOL...

And I can't wait for Cap 3 now...all about finding and bringing Bucky back! YAY!

Even without the slash goggles, which I definitely have, this is an excellent story telling...even just the friendship between those two guys would be inspiring...and I've always had a soft spot for Bucky, even in the first movie.

LOL.

And thanks for the brilliant ost! :)
hells_half_acre
May. 15th, 2014 07:32 pm (UTC)
...but on the other hand, not everyone likes a long and emotional story telling.

This is true, and I think based on the desire to both 1)appeal to the largest audience possible, and 2)get Cap (and Bucky) to the future ASAP, they did a really good job with the movie.

this feels as if the only reason they made the movie was to introduce a character...and not because they had anything to say about the character but just because otherwise people might not understand why there is a Captain America in the Avengers movie.

Exactly. Basically, the entire movie was "backstory" rather than "story" - it was basically just saying, "this is who this guy is and why, now wait a few years and we'll actually talk about what that means."

My only complaint is that I don't have the DVD yet so that I can do an indepth watching where I am glued to the TV until I know everything...LOL...

This is also my only complaint!

Even without the slash goggles, which I definitely have, this is an excellent story telling...even just the friendship between those two guys would be inspiring...and I've always had a soft spot for Bucky, even in the first movie.

Agreed on all counts! I too usually where the slash goggles, but what I loved about this movie was that I could enjoy it just as much without the slash goggles as with. :)
(no subject) - kuhekabir - May. 16th, 2014 02:16 pm (UTC) - Expand
jeymien
May. 15th, 2014 02:19 pm (UTC)
I always thought the point of the lack of Steve/Peggy relationship time in First Avengers had to do with how much worse it is for missed opportunities. So much time that he didn't spend with her only for them to finally have an opportunity.. and then he's gone, missing. It's a missed opportunity for both of them. After all, It's better to have loved and lost than to never love at all. They didn't even get a chance to see what could happen with them. Marvel's all about the feels there.

But yeah, things were sort of rushed with the World War II - Steve/Howling Commandos storyline. I always sort of felt that was a Marvel plan - that way they could use the past as flashbacks that impact on the future with Cap. With the Phase 2 mapped out and Phase 3 ongoing (Cap 3 set for May 2016) - and Chris Evans signed for 6 movies (he's got 3 done, 2 going and 1 left after that - also the Thor The Dark World cameo doesn't count towards that), and Sebastian Stan signed for 9 movies (and he's only done 2)... I think we'll see lots more.
hells_half_acre
May. 15th, 2014 07:39 pm (UTC)
I always thought the point of the lack of Steve/Peggy relationship time in First Avengers had to do with how much worse it is for missed opportunities.

This is a very good point.

Also, good point about wanting to have fresh flashback material for future movies. I guess we'll see! I'm certainly interested in why they signed Stan for so many movies!

(no subject) - jeymien - May. 15th, 2014 08:10 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - hells_half_acre - May. 15th, 2014 11:07 pm (UTC) - Expand
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fannishliss
May. 15th, 2014 04:18 pm (UTC)
I just want to say I LOVE YOU because you recognized this fact:
"Sebastian Stan makes the SADDEST FACES EVER. Gifs don't even do it justice."
This is world-shattering trufax.

I very much enjoyed being spoilered for Winter Soldier. Like you I cared little to nothing about TFA and am still sulking that Jensen is not playing Cap. Tho Evans does do a fine job. But Jensen!! Argh.

But it was so awesome in the theatre watching the movie spool out and knowing every time the Winter Soldier appeared and was this implacable killer that HE IS BUCKY. He is Steve's BFF right there!! Right there, kicking all the asses! onoz!!! all the feels. My son actually asked me if I was all right. :P

Me, I have a tolerance for slash or no slash. I guess my thing is really just the love. Greater LOVE hath no man than Steve pinned underneath Bucky's metal arm and full of bullet holes and refusing to give in. And then Bucky drags him out of the Potomac BECAUSE LOVE.

My preference in fic is a terribly damaged Bucky slowly recovering because Steve Loves him SO MUCH. And Bucky feels that powerful love that has always been there. Bucky will recover eventually.... Steve, and also Sam and Natasha probably, will be key in that process, and I have read some fic where Tony and Bruce are also quite helpful. I don't know where Clint has run off to, but Natasha is wearing his arrow necklace YAY.

Politically I loved Cap 2 more than anything in a long time. I wonder if there are any interviews with Robert Redford about being Pierce, because wow, what a terrible, terrible person. :) I also liked how Fury is portrayed... a SHIELD guy wants to use SHIELD to solve all problems, and Cap is like, these may be problems, but this is not the solution. It's awesome to have the Star Spangled Man actually speak some sense to power. :)

And Bucky, as the Soldier, just is so heartbreaking. I want to personally kick EVERY HYDRA ASS, and I am a hippie. I guess I am a situationally vengeful hippie. :P "Light of the world, shine on Bucky, love is the answer...."

Anyways, great review!

I want a solo Black Widow movie. Am hoping to see both Under the Skin Asap and Lucy as soon as it comes out, but would also like some actual Natasha.




hells_half_acre
May. 15th, 2014 07:52 pm (UTC)
I very much enjoyed being spoilered for Winter Soldier. Like you I cared little to nothing about TFA and am still sulking that Jensen is not playing Cap. Tho Evans does do a fine job. But Jensen!! Argh.

I'm in the "can't picture anyone else but Evans" camp now. Actually, to tell you the truth, I could never picture Jensen as Cap - but I'm sure if he had been able to do it, he would have been great.

Me, I have a tolerance for slash or no slash. I guess my thing is really just the love. Greater LOVE hath no man than Steve pinned underneath Bucky's metal arm and full of bullet holes and refusing to give in. And then Bucky drags him out of the Potomac BECAUSE LOVE.

EXACTLY. This is also me. Basically, I really hate this societal notion we have that romantic-love is somehow greater than all the other loves - it's not. But, BECAUSE we have that notion, a lot of the time if I want fic about love, I HAVE to read slash fic... it's not a huge hardship, but I honestly do read for the love not the sex.

My preference in fic is a terribly damaged Bucky slowly recovering because Steve Loves him SO MUCH. And Bucky feels that powerful love that has always been there. Bucky will recover eventually.... Steve, and also Sam and Natasha probably, will be key in that process, and I have read some fic where Tony and Bruce are also quite helpful. I don't know where Clint has run off to, but Natasha is wearing his arrow necklace YAY.

This is my preference as well, with the caveat that "recovery" doesn't mean "magically better" and that he'll also never be the same as he was, but he'll be different and still loved and still happy even though he's different.

I guess that's one of the things I really love about the Bucky character, because I feel like the lost-arm is a physical manifestation of how he'll never be the same again.

And Bucky, as the Soldier, just is so heartbreaking. I want to personally kick EVERY HYDRA ASS, and I am a hippie. I guess I am a situationally vengeful hippie. :P "Light of the world, shine on Bucky, love is the answer...."

Hahaha... same here.

I want a solo Black Widow movie. Am hoping to see both Under the Skin Asap and Lucy as soon as it comes out, but would also like some actual Natasha.

Yeah, that'd be really cool.



(no subject) - jeymien - May. 15th, 2014 08:24 pm (UTC) - Expand
jedinic
May. 15th, 2014 04:18 pm (UTC)
So I'm a terrible fan who managed to sleep through half of TWS. you've just inspired me to watch it again.
hells_half_acre
May. 15th, 2014 07:54 pm (UTC)
Oh man, yeah, I recommend it. I can't fall asleep during movies - even boring ones. You are talented.
katsheswims
May. 15th, 2014 06:28 pm (UTC)
Yay! I was excited to see this.

I totally agree with you about the first movie. It had good points, but was too rushed and not much time for us to get attached to the characters. And I think you were right as to the reasoning being they just wanted to get Steve to his end point in the war so he could be woken up for Avengers and future films. But as you said CA2 is way better, and I think one of the best in the MCU.

Steve's scene with Peggy broke my heart in CA2 and really made me feel for their lost relationship. But I'm excited that we'll get to see more of her in the new TV series and maybe it will fill in some of what was missing from the first film because I'm sure we can get to know a few of the other characters that we only glimpsed in CA:TFA.

Sebastian Stan did do a great job as Bucky. He had few lines but they made an impact! (And his face/expressions!) His "but I knew him" was so heartbreaking. And wow, you thought the movie ended on that note? That would have been a bleak ending. He's still got some tough times ahead but at least he's free right now...I'm wondering what he'll be up to before we see him again? I doubt he'll be in Avengers 2, but I hope we at least get a mention/hint. I wonder if he'll be trying to track down HYDRA for revenge? Or maybe he's too broken to even contemplate that right now. Maybe he'll just be constantly on the move? Hopefully he gets a lot of his memory back, but that will also be hard on him when his past morals clash with what he was forced to do.

Also I'm with you about Steve and friendship and not needing a romantic relationship--basically everything you said!
hells_half_acre
May. 15th, 2014 11:04 pm (UTC)
But I'm excited that we'll get to see more of her in the new TV series and maybe it will fill in some of what was missing from the first film because I'm sure we can get to know a few of the other characters that we only glimpsed in CA:TFA.

Agreed. I'm much more interested in the Agent Carter series than I am in Agents of Shield, I have to say. Peggy Carter has a very rich universe and time period to explore.

And wow, you thought the movie ended on that note? That would have been a bleak ending.

Haha, yeah... like I said, I tend to be a bit cynical/bleak, which ironically is probably why I like to keep my LJ so positive. :P

I doubt he'll be in Avengers 2, but I hope we at least get a mention/hint. I wonder if he'll be trying to track down HYDRA for revenge? Or maybe he's too broken to even contemplate that right now. Maybe he'll just be constantly on the move? Hopefully he gets a lot of his memory back, but that will also be hard on him when his past morals clash with what he was forced to do.

Maybe it's because I've been watching Supernatural for 6 years, but I imagine Avengers 2 will open and we'll have Steve saying "But I'm busy looking for Bucky! Ugh, FINE! I'll do this ONE CASE with you and then go back to looking for Bucky..." ;)
franztastisch
May. 15th, 2014 07:36 pm (UTC)
Crashing the party to say (possibly again) that what I'd love to see in the MCU (though it will never happen) is Bucky not getting better. Because I'm evil and sometimes people can't be saved.

Also, delicious angst. Also I like the idea of the amoral weapon. Horrible as that is.

But I'm glad you enjoyed them! Do you have the sudden need to watch all Marvel films ever, off the back of this? :P
hells_half_acre
May. 15th, 2014 11:17 pm (UTC)
Crashing the party to say (possibly again) that what I'd love to see in the MCU (though it will never happen) is Bucky not getting better. Because I'm evil and sometimes people can't be saved.

See, and I want something grey and confusing and in between - where Bucky is half saved and half not saved. :P

But I'm glad you enjoyed them! Do you have the sudden need to watch all Marvel films ever, off the back of this? :P

Haha, no more so than I had before, surprisingly. I've got a slight interest in Thor 2 and Ironman 3, but that's about it. I'll probably see those two eventually when they hit dvds... actually, has Ironman 3 already hit dvds? I am so out of the loop when it comes to movies, it's ridiculous.

I WILL see the next Avengers movie, of course.

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claudiapriscus
May. 15th, 2014 11:32 pm (UTC)
I like all your thoughts and agree and have already subscribed to your newsletter.

Also, so much on the Steve/Peggy in the first movie- I mean, I know there are people that hard core ship it and actually view the first movie as a romantic comedy with action scenes, but I could never see it (I mean, more power to them, but mileage varies). I really like the /idea/ of Peggy Carter, and I really love that she's getting a TV show, but I was really frustrated and turned off that in the movie, she seems more like an informed "badass lady" in that she's given all these attributes, but is never actually fundamental to the plot. She's not even the sexy lamp. She's just kind of...on the margins. (and you know, if you're going to have Peggy Carter, you should damn well DO SOMETHING WITH HER). Plus I had a strong negative reaction to the typical "we'll show a woman is strong by having her act violently inappropriately." It just gets my back up: what a way to send the message that you think a badass lady character is harmless or absurd than to use her acts of violence as a punchline. I know mileage REALLY varies on this one, but that was my reaction when I first saw it, and it's not changed since. (especially the part where she shoots him: to me that seemed SO "women, amiright, getting angry at shit" and wasn't anything I could construct her motives and trai of thought for.)

I also thought the first part of the movie (first two thirds? something) was the best, and was kind of sorry that instead of getting a movie about a guy trying to adjust to suddenly being much taller and having body dysmorphia while struggling with his ideals in a time of war, it turned into something that felt like watching someone else play a video game. But I will say the part where a politician, confronted with the perfect physical specimen that is the world's only supersoldier, immediately goes, "YES, let's get this guy on stage, he's going to sell the crap out of some bonds".
hells_half_acre
May. 16th, 2014 12:18 am (UTC)
I like all your thoughts and agree and have already subscribed to your newsletter.

And I yours!

I completely agree about Peggy in the first movie! You've pinpointed exactly what I couldn't quite put into words. I just thought we needed more time with her to care about her, but I realize now that caring about her wasn't helped by the fact that she really is more of a formula/trope in that movie rather than a fully dimensional, relate-able, and important character.

It's nice that some people had a different experience than we did, of course, but yeah, I think my feelings on her run closer to yours.

instead of getting a movie about a guy trying to adjust to suddenly being much taller and having body dysmorphia while struggling with his ideals in a time of war, it turned into something that felt like watching someone else play a video game.

Yes! Exactly! I actually just posted a couple of more thoughts on the Winter Soldier, and one of them is the fact that I like the little part in the movie where it's implied that no one actually knows what Steve is capable of - not even Steve. And that would have been SUCH a fun dynamic to play with along with exploring what it's like for people who hold high ideals about war to actually find themselves in the realities of war. The premise was such a RICH playground and yet we never got to play. It was a summary, not a story.

a politician, confronted with the perfect physical specimen that is the world's only supersoldier, immediately goes, "YES, let's get this guy on stage, he's going to sell the crap out of some bonds".

I loved that bit too. And I needed that, because it was with that bit where I was realized that the Captain America movies weren't going to be the patriotic hot air that the name implied to me, instead they were going to be the opposite.

cordelia_gray
May. 16th, 2014 12:30 am (UTC)
Yay! So many Winter Soldier thoughts - I love it :)

Totally agree with pretty much all of this! The scene where Steve visits Peggy was so sad, I was getting misty-eyed the moment he showed up there, knowing what was coming. Such a hard thing for Steve - she's the only person who knows him, and she's lost so much of her memories. And then there's Bucky, and he's the same ;_; Also, when she says "It's been so long," and it has for her, but not for him - I'm not sure how long Steve's been out of the ice here, but for him it's been months, maybe? A couple of years at most, subjectively, since he's seen her looking young and beautiful.

I caught a bit from a Sebastian Stan interview where he said he'd spent some time around a relative with dementia, and he drew on that for his performance as the Winter Soldier. I really felt that, the way he's totally functional one moment, confused the next, angry about the confusion... Really great performance, and you are correct, he makes the saddest faces OMG.

And Sam, and Natasha, and the friendships there - so great, really. Sam is just such a lovely, solid, wonderful person, and his interactions with Steve are great, partly because he does see the ways in which Steve is damaged, he doesn't just see the propaganda. I so wish the next movie was just Steve, Sam, and Natasha on the road to find Bucky and bring him home!
hells_half_acre
May. 16th, 2014 12:41 am (UTC)
I'm not sure how long Steve's been out of the ice here, but for him it's been months, maybe? A couple of years at most, subjectively, since he's seen her looking young and beautiful.

Very good point. So many dimensions of sadness.

caught a bit from a Sebastian Stan interview where he said he'd spent some time around a relative with dementia, and he drew on that for his performance as the Winter Soldier. I really felt that, the way he's totally functional one moment, confused the next, angry about the confusion... Really great performance, and you are correct, he makes the saddest faces OMG.

Interesting! And when you put it in that context, it adds even more meaning to the scene with Peggy, because really BOTH of Steve's friends are suffering from dementia... Peggy can't be saved, but Steve can still hold out hope for Bucky.

And Sam, and Natasha, and the friendships there - so great, really. Sam is just such a lovely, solid, wonderful person, and his interactions with Steve are great, partly because he does see the ways in which Steve is damaged, he doesn't just see the propaganda. I so wish the next movie was just Steve, Sam, and Natasha on the road to find Bucky and bring him home!

Agreed agreed agreed. 100 times agreed!
etoile444
May. 17th, 2014 02:33 am (UTC)
Omg! Its so funny how so much of the Supernatural fandom is into the Winter Soldier, but given the themes of brotherly love saving the day, how can you not? Ive seen the movie 3 times, ive never done that before. I do see their love as brotherly, and that "I knew him scene..." it was heartbreaking. The only 2 contemporaries of Steve cant remember him clearly. He's so alone. Thats why I love Sam and also Natasha. Im going to check out some fic recs. Ive been reading "the man on the bridge" on A03. Sorry I dont have the link, im on my phone. It has some hurt/comfort but minimal Bucky curled up in a ball crying. It also has lots of action and the avengers.
hells_half_acre
May. 17th, 2014 03:10 am (UTC)
Haha, very true - there are similar themes of brotherhood... also similar themes of watching pretty boys be completely devastated.

Thanks for the fic rec. I can probably find the fic based solely on title - AO3 has a pretty good search mechanism.
(no subject) - etoile444 - May. 18th, 2014 01:30 am (UTC) - Expand
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