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Quick Reaction: 9x10 Road Trip

Oh man... um, do I need a preamble? I don't think so, besides maybe just to remind people that I type these things up after only seeing the episode once and drinking wine, so no quotes are going to be correct and I may forget stuff, and I'm well aware of that fact. This is just me trying to talk about the gist of things....

Anyway, great episode! So let's talk about it...

We begin where we left off. Kevin is dead. Sam-Gadreel is gone. Dean gives Kevin a hunters burial. And then breaks stuff, because of emotions. But, ugh, him looking at the spot on the floor where Kevin died just killed me. That's Dean's HOUSE, and he's always going to know that Kevin died there and it was his fault...

Man, I'm upset that Kevin is dead. Does he really have to be dead? Can't the writers use my Team Heaven idea and just have Kevin meet up with Bobby, Rufus, Ash, and the Harvelles up in Heaven and they all form a team up there and take down Metatron from the inside? Can't that be a thing? Then they get resurrected for some reason and live happily ever after! I think that's a good plan.

Anyway, Kevin's dead... so, let's cut to Gadreel.

Gadreel is hanging out back stage at a Justin Bieber concert. Okay, not Justin Bieber, but I swear that's supposed to be the equivalent what with all the songs with "Baby" in the title. It's pretty hilarious... and we find out that the guy is actually possessed by an angel, but not just any angel - he was the guard at the prison that Gadreel had been in since the dawn of time. Not only that, but he seems to have been Gadreel's torturer. We also learn that Gadreel had a boyfriend in prison? Hem-something? I don't think it was Abner, I think it was someone else, but I don't know.. anyway, apparently Bieber-angel killed and/or ruined Gadreel's boyfriend. Gadreel kills him. Yay!

The thing is, I do feel bad for Gadreel...., but we'll get to that.

What's next? Do we go back to the bunker? Let's just go back to the bunker...

Cas arrives because Dean called him. He's got a new style of trench coat! Oh man, am I going to have to start a section for Cas on the clothing catalog? Probably. Sigh.

Anyway...oh, he's also no longer wearing a tie!

Okay, back tot he plot... Cas sees the broken lamp and mess and realizes that Dean's alone, and rightfully asks what on earth happened... and Dean tells him. Cas is understanding and tries to comfort Dean, after all, if anyone knows about doing wrong things for the right reasons, it's Cas. Dean's not having it though. He wants to go after Gadreel and kill him, even if it means killing his brother.

Is it Cas who suggests and alternative? Yes..., he remembers Alfie/Samandriel and how the demons were able to bypass his coding... and he suggests they talk to Crowley to see if there's a way to bypass Gadreel and reach Sam so that Sam will know to eject Gadreel.

So, they go talk to Crowley. Dean offers him blood, but Crowley denies being addicted to it... he wants to deal instead. He'll help, but he gets to go with them on the road trip. Though he'll keep the shackles on.

Backtracking a bit though - it's only here that Crowley finds out that Kevin is dead and that Sam is missing. Crowley liked messing with Kevin psychologically so much, that I kind of... well, I wonder if maybe Crowley is more upset about Kevin's death then he seems? Maybe not. Maybe I just want him to be. But Crowley reiterates that he tried to get Kevin to run - that he tried to warn Kevin that everyone about the Winchesters dies bloody...

Eventually, Dean caves and agrees to Crowley's deal.

Oh, and we find out that Gadreel stole the Impala! Way to add insult to injury dude. Kill your friends isn't enough, he also steals your car.

But that's okay, Cas has a car! It inexplicably stopped a few miles away though.

Back to Gadreel - he's meeting up with Metatron, who is still giving him people to kill, much against Gadreel's wishes. Gadreel doesn't want to be a murderer, he wants to be a hero... but alas, being in prison for millennia upon millennia has obviously kept him extremely gullible and naive.

What's interesting about the bar they're meeting up in though is that the bartender is Tahmoh!!! TAHMOH!! Sorry, I like my Yukon boys, apparently. For those who don't know the actors name - Gadreel's original vessel is tending bar, in all his dreamy glory.

Metatron gives Gadreel another name, and off he goes...

Back to Dean, Cas, and Crowley... who find Cas's car - which is a beige caddy, like the one that Sam had back in 5x04. I wonder if it's the same car. Anyway... it had run out of gas. Hilarious. Dean or Crowley calls it a pimp ride, but Cas says he likes it. I think it's because it's the same colour as his trench coat. :P

Dean fills it back up and off they go - but not before a nosy neighbour spies them.

OH! Also, there's a battle for the shotgun seat between Crowley and Cas, and I love the smug look Cas gets when Dean tells Crowley to get in the back... and then the switch disappointment when Dean tells Cas to get in the back too in order to keep an eye on Crowley. There's only one person worthy of the shotgun seat for Dean, and that person is currently being held hostage by a backstabbing mystery angel.

Crowley brings them to one of his people, who he's put in the NSA, so that he can keep tabs on whoever he wishes. Pretty clever. The girl playing her looks REALLY FRICKIN' FAMILIAR and I can't figure out what I know her from... or if it's just a case of her looking like someone else.

Only Crowley goes in to meet with her, and she fills him in on Abaddon and how exactly Cas got his "mojo" back - ie: not the kosher way. I do wonder if that move is going to come back to bite Cas in the ass, because he DOES seem very reluctant to tell anyone about what he did.

The information about Abaddon is interesting too. Hell is in chaos, no one is doing their job. Most people are waiting to see how the fight between Crowley and Abaddon pans out and they aren't actually in support of Abaddon the way she claims they are. NSA girl, herself, is playing both sides - which Crowley points out - until a victor arises. NSA girl points out that it's what Crowley would do, and I guess Crowley agrees!

Anyway, Crowley gets the information about where the Impala was last spotted and then it's off to go there...

Meanwhile, Gadreel is honing in on his next victim. Abner, who was also in prison with Gadreel. Abner has a family and is happy - he was a crappy angel, but he's a good human. He tells Gadreel to come back when his wife and kid are at the movies so they can catch up... and yeah, ughhhhhhhhhhhhh, this is not going to end well.

Gadreel comes back, and Abner goes on about how he's finally got what he always wanted - and he suggests that if Gadreel has a chance to get what he's always wanted, he hang onto it, no matter what the cost... so, of course, Gadreel kills him, because Gadreel wants to be a hero and that's what Metatron has promised him.

Meanwhile, Abaddon is killing NSA girl for playing both sides, when NSA girl tells her where she can find Crowley. I have to admit, in terms of strategical thinking, Crowley is coming out in the lead in this fight. Information is a weapon, and Abaddon just destroyed a good source for it. Not only that, but Abaddon could have fed the NSA demon falls information with the knowledge that it would have been passed onto Crowley. I mean, geez, and I'm actually not good at strategy in the slightest, so this must be pretty dumb.

Dean gets to Abner's house too late to save Abner, but he does distract Gadreel enough for Cas to get a knock-out punch in. My friend and I think someone should ask Misha at a con how satisfying that punch was...heheeh.

Then it's off to nearby secret lair that happens to have a torture chair in it... and Crowley gets to work. Cas doesn't recognize the angel in Sam.. there's a bunch of taunting, and then the torture starts.

So, I like where this episode goes and what happens, but MAN, part of me is so frustrated that they didn't just TALK to Gadreel - because Gadreel is being taken advantage of and no one even knows!! At least when Cas was being lead down the wrong path, he had Dean warning him off of it - but Gadreel has NO ONE. He's got that uncomfortable feeling in the pit of his stomach, he's got the revulsion about what he's doing, but he's got no one looking out for his best interests, he's got no one to tell him that he's being lied to and making the same mistakes all over again. I mean, how did Lucifer get into paradise? I know the actual religious lore (or the version I was taught, anyway), but what's the SPN lore? SPN makes it sound like Lucifer hadn't even fallen at that point - that corrupting man was what made Lucifer fall. So, I'm guessing that Lucifer, the arch-angel, walked up to Gadreel and fed him lies and made him think he was doing the right thing by letting Lucifer into the garden... and really, Metatron is doing the same thing. MAN, I JUST WANT SOMEONE TO SAVE GADREEL! I know he killed Kevin and that's a hard thing to get passed in terms of a redemption arc, but it's not like people haven't done worse on this show.

Anyway, I got off topic there....

Eventually Dean can't bare the sounds of Sam's screams anymore and he skulks off... Cas follows him. He tries to talk to Cas to distract himself and asks how Cas is doing. Cas is doing fine. Dean tries to find out how Cas got his mojo back, but Cas won't tell him... Dean apologizes for kicking him out of the bunker... and yeah... I can't really remember the rest of the conversation, but I'm sure it's filled with interesting dialogue.

Then Crowley calls them back into the room. He's found out Gadreel's name. Cas is suitably enraged because he, like all the other angels, I'm guessing, blame Gadreel for everything that's ever gone wrong. Seriously?! You're going to blame the guardsman and not Lucifer who actually was the one to betray God? Geeez, no wonder Gadreel is so messed up.

I get it though, the point is that they're all angry and they're too angry to consider there might be more to Gadreel then "bad guy." I actually have thinky thoughts about our current society when it comes to this stuff - because of, ironically, something that Kevin Parks said back in August...about how on Supernatural, they aren't allowed to show gruesome things happening to good people (like them getting stabbed/mutilated/beheaded etc)... but if it's a bad guy/non-human, they're allowed to be as gruesome as they want. And I think that says a lot about our mindsets as soon as we cast someone as the "bad guy" - like, suddenly it's okay to bomb their cities and whatnot, because they're all evil, aren't they? Only maybe they aren't - maybe only one of them is evil and the rest are just confused or just trying to live until tomorrow.... anyway, um... this is too heavy, let's get back to the show....

So, they torture Gadreel somemore, but it doesn't seem to be working - and Gadreel tells them that it's not going to work.... and then Dean gets any idea - If Cas possesses Sam too, then Cas can tell Sam that Gadreel is there and Sam can then eject Gadreel. Only, this won't work, because Cas need permission.

I also wonder whether Cas CAN possess another vessel at this point? I mean, technically, Cas doesn't have his own grace. I think Cas is still human, using another angels grace to have um...power his powers. I always had this image that angels had soul+grace. Anna fell by separating the two...and since she wasn't in a vessel at the time, her disembodied soul fell to earth, found a womb, and was reborn as a human. Cas had his grace stolen, so now the being that is Cas is just soul, not soul+grace. Only now, Cas is soul+Theo's grace....so, our graces interchangeable? Does it not matter who they belong to? Or does it?  Ugh, so many questions.

Anyway, Cas can't enter without permission, but Crowley quickly points out that HE can. So, they make another deal - this time, in exchange for Crowley's freedom. Crowley will go in, find Sam, tell him to eject Gadreel, and then vacate Sam.

And we get our first multiple possession in Supernatural!! I didn't even think it was possible for a demon and an angel to occupy the same vessel!! Hell, I didn't think it was possible to have more than one angel OR demon in one vessel. But apparently it is!

Before Crowley goes in, Dean gives him a code word. Poughkeepsi - which in Winchester code means to cut and run. Oh, also, Crowley makes an awesome joke about how he's not going to stay in Sam, because he's not a fan of sloppy seconds. Awesome.

Anyway.... Crowley goes in and finds Sam, who freaks, but then Crowley DOES get his attention with the use of the code word, and Sam hears him out. Apparently, vessel can ALWAYS remember what they do when possessed, even if the possessing thing tries to keep it from them or keep them tamped down. Crowley encourages Sam to remember, and Sam does....

Then Crowley says something that I think is actually pretty damn compassionate - because when Sam, distressed, asks if he killed Kevin. Crowley tells him that HE didn't, that it wasn't him and that's not his fault... and yeah, I thought, you know, considering the source, that was pretty damn compassionate and nice of Crowley to say.

Then Tahmoh shoes back up! Or rather, Gadreel and starts beating Crowley up - and then Sam... but Sam fights back and DOES eject Gadreel....

Of course, my friend pointed out that Dean missed a golden opportunity, because with both Gadreel and Crowley inside Sam, he could have stabbed Sam then and be rid of BOTH of them... and Sam, though...that would be the only problem. :P Anyway, we laughed about that for a while, because we are soulless.

Then Crowley gets out of Sam as promised. Cas and Dean start removing the pins...

Back at Tahmoh's bar, Metatron is waiting, and Gadreel shows up disembodied and re-possesses Tahmoh.. who, hey, he DOES say yes.

Meanwhile, Abaddon has shown up where Dean, Cas, Sam, and Crowley are - Crowley tells them to leave out the back and he'll distract her. Cas helps a still injured Sam away, and Dean tells Crowley that if he ever sees him again...

Crowley: "You'll kill me. Yes, I know, I love you too."
-AWWWWWWWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww... hahahaha, I loved this line so damn much.

 Abaddon makes her entrance and her and Crowley have a talk. Her minions won't attack him, and Crowley points out it's because the problem with demons is that they're only loyal to whoever is strongest, and they don't know who that is yet.... that the problem with Abaddon is that she thinks this is a fight, when it's actually a campaign. I gotta say, as much as I love Abaddon, Crowley, I think, is the stronger candidate.

Then the Winchesters and Cas are on a very nice bridge in the rain. Cas heals Sam's wounds, but the internal ones still remaining are going to take several treatments.  Then Cas gives Dean and Sam the semblance of privacy and goes to stand in the rain a little ways away. And my god, it's raining hard... I wonder what night this was filmed. The rain in Vancouver is usually not that intense... I mean, to show up on camera, it had to be raining BUCKETS.

Anyway, back to the very serious conversation... Sam is pissed, but not yelling-pissed...more, disappointed and betrayed. Dean ignored Sam's own will and wishes. Sam was ready to die and Dean didn't respect that.... and now Kevin's dead. Dean tells Sam that Kevin's blood isn't on Sam's hands, it's on Deans... and that's why Dean's leaving. Dean blames himself for everything - says he's like poison. Everyone around him just ends up dying and therefore he just shouldn't be around anyone he loves anymore.

Sam tells him to go - because Sam is disappointed and betrayed and it probably hurts to look at Dean right now...but Sam DOES tell Dean that Dean shouldn't think that about himself, that Sam's not telling him to go for that reason... but when Dean turns back to ask him what he means, Sam just tells him to go again. So Dean does.

Cas is obviously staying with Sam, because Sam needs his healing powers...

And it's all very sad and whatnot, and what Dean said about himself is heartbreaking... but meanwhile I SUPER EXCITED!!! Because does this mean we get the Sam and Cas adventures?!?!!?! SASSY! You know I don't ship them, but I find their friendship FASCINATING and I've always wanted the show to explore it more, but it never does - according to Misha, it's because Jared teases him so much on set that they never get any work done - though, that might just be what Misha says and not the truth. BUT PLEASE OH PLEASE LET US GET THE ADVENTURES OF SAM AND CAS!! Just for ONE episode, it's all I ask.

But yeah, super heartbreaking ending...

I know the boys won't stay apart for long, I think Sam just needs some space to forgive Dean without Dean being around... and I think Dean needs to go do some self-exile penance in order to feel like he's properly being punished for all his mistakes. It'll be very interesting what happens next though...

I'm interested to see what will happen with the battle for hell now that Crowley is loose. IS Crowley addicted to human blood? Is Crowley more human than he was before? Is this going to help or hinder him? I was so sure that this whole season would all be about the angels and that next season would be about the hell fight...but I was wrong! The show plots move way quicker than they ever did under Kripke (or in S7).

So, I'm still super sad about Kevin. Dean is heartbreaking as usual... but I'm excited for what's to come!

Interesting stuff!!

As usual, please tell me in comments about the important bits that I missed talking about that you desperately need to discuss! 


( 29 comments — Leave a comment )
Jan. 15th, 2014 09:22 am (UTC)
I always had this image that angels had soul+grace. Anna fell by separating the two...and since she wasn't in a vessel at the time, her disembodied soul fell to earth, found a womb, and was reborn as a human. Cas had his grace stolen, so now the being that is Cas is just soul, not soul+grace. Only now, Cas is soul+Theo's grace...

Oh, this makes a lot of sense for how Cas can stil be himself after ingesting Theo's grace! Until explained otherwise on show, I'm taking this as the way it works!

This episode really moved and was very intense. The double possession was so dramatic that I will handwave my realization that all they had to do to get Gadreel's grace out of Sam was to make a slit in his throat like was done to Cas by Metatron and by Cas to Theo...
Jan. 15th, 2014 09:30 am (UTC)
I'm glad I could help make sense of Cas for you!

I'm wondering if maybe there are consequences to what Cas did... he seems so reluctant to talk about, and treats it like it was a desperate measure - part of me wonders if maybe there's a good reason why they couldn't do the same thing with Gadreel.

I guess we'll wait and see! :)
Jan. 15th, 2014 11:58 am (UTC)
Upon more thought, your explanation of Soul + grace could mean that cutting Sam's throat to let Gadreel's grace out would leave Gadreel's soul still in Sam. And possibly that could still be powerful enough to keep Sam stuck in the dream pocket in his mind...

Okay, I'll go with that until some other explanation surfaces.
Jan. 15th, 2014 06:17 pm (UTC)
Good point. Cas most likely stole Theo's grace and then left the soul to die...or killed the soul.
Jan. 15th, 2014 09:40 am (UTC)
Dean gives Kevin a hunters burial. And then breaks stuff, because of emotions. But, ugh, him looking at the spot on the floor where Kevin died just killed me. That's Dean's HOUSE, and he's always going to know that Kevin died there and it was his fault...

I know right? Kevin was supposed to be safe in the Bunker! But because of Dean's deception he was put in harm's way. Oh, the guilt!

Sorry, but I can't feel sorry for Gadreel and I don't think if he'd had a chance to say he was working with Metatron that it would've helped. I doubt that Dean and Cas would've been able to change his mind and at this point, why would they want to? Dean was deceived and he's pissed. All he wants is Sam back safe and sound and Gadreel won't let him go. Quite frankly, Gadreel sealed his fate once he killed Kevin.
Jan. 15th, 2014 09:48 am (UTC)
Oh, I'm not saying that Dean and Cas would WANT to help Gadreel - I'm just saying that *I* want someone to help Gadreel. I totally understand where Dean and Cas are emotionally at this point, and they are definitely not in a place to listen to Gadreel and figure out that he's naive and being used.

I don't think Dean and Cas could've changed his mind, but they could have at least nurtured the seeds of doubt that I'm sure must be somewhere in there... but again, it's not like I expected them to, I just want SOMEONE to.

But yeah, I realize that's just me. I can simultaneously have sympathy for Gadreel AND never forgive him for killing Kevin. :P

Jan. 15th, 2014 12:35 pm (UTC)
I have this funny feeling that Gadreel went back to his own body because the writers are reading too many of our comments - or maybe just too lazy to find a new actor for the job? I mean, why would a vessel want to say yes again? That's way weird.

You were talking about how dumb Abadon was to kill the informant... I agree with that but thought it funny that while you were thinking how dumb Abbadon was, I was thinking how dumb the informant was not to give Abbadon reason not to kill her. All she had to say is that she gave them directions to the impala so she could tell Abbadon their exact location... and of course she wasn't playing both sides - she was Abbadon's girl! But I guess that was the point. While Crowley would accept that a demon would play both sides - it was only natural! - Abbadon wouldn't accept nothing other than complete submission.

Your sympathy for Gadreel - I totally feel as well. I remember writing in my comments last year that I wished Dean and Cas would wake Gadreel up, make him realize how he was being played. When Gadreel was talking about how he went through so much more torture in Heaven's jail, why didn't Dean ask him more about that? I bet they could have made him talk a little more with the compassion angle. If the story goes the way I hope, Gadreel will find out his mistake in the end and turn sides - and probably get killed.

Your note on Crowley being compassionate toward Sam - I guess we could explain that away by saying - he's a demon, he knows exactly how Sam's brain works and he wanted Sam to snap out of it quickly. Or, we could speculate that his half-humanity has made him more compassionate. Kind of reminds me of Meg, and how she said she was both good and bad - and that sucked. I have a feeling Crowley is going to be going through the same turmoil - which will be neat to see.

Thanks for your review!

Jan. 15th, 2014 06:34 pm (UTC)
I have this funny feeling that Gadreel went back to his own body because the writers are reading too many of our comments - or maybe just too lazy to find a new actor for the job? I mean, why would a vessel want to say yes again? That's way weird.

I think a lot of the times when fans say "they must be reacting to our comments!" it's actually the actors having the same feelings about an actor long before the fans even see the episode. I mean, Tahmoh knocked it out of the park in his first episode. So, I think it's similar to Misha - even before the fans saw him, the writers were revising his arc in order to have more of him in the show.

I'm not too surprised that he said yes. After all, Gadreel may have kept him in a dream as well - and we don't know what Gadreel told him in order to get him to say yes.

And I agree with you about how dumb the informant was to not sweet-talk her way out of death! It's true! I was just distracted by how Abaddon couldn't see the possibilities even if the informant did admit to playing both sides. But yeah, that informant REALLY sucks at being a double agent.

It's true, Crowley is a master manipulator and probably was just being kind to Sam in order to make sure that Sam listened to him. Still, I do wonder about his state of mind right now....it'll definitely be interesting to see what happens with him, as you say.

Thanks for the comment!
Jan. 15th, 2014 12:52 pm (UTC)
I foresee a lot of mopey Sam in the Bunker while Cas assures him that Dean had only the best intentions, they strikes sad profiles, and then Cas discovers all the Asian skin mags with Mrs. Tran's face taped over the models.
Jan. 15th, 2014 06:45 pm (UTC)
I'll take it! ;)
Jan. 15th, 2014 02:48 pm (UTC)
Well, I had all kinds of thoughts about this episode, which I couldn't really enjoy because it was SO DAMN SAD.

I am really disappointed in the way Our Boys have treated Gadreel. I feel for him so hard. That Metatron, I want to WRING HIS NECK.

I was awfully sad that Dean burned Kevin's body. I know it was his way of showing Hunter Respect, but I was really hoping for a resurrection there. :P

I'm glad that Sam is back and alive and well, and I'm pretty psyched for Tahmoh to play Gadreel now! :)

Also SASSY is something to look forward to!!! So that's a yay.

I guess my main problem is that I made the mistake of writing my hopes and dreams for this ep into a story where it would all be nicely resolved, happy happy joy joy, play like good friends etc. And then they just barged ahead and tortured Gadreel and that was really not the right thing to do. :(

I addressed the whole Gadreel story in my story too, and I am very disappointed in Our Boys for not being more skeptical about Who Started the Fall. Clearly it was Lucifer and not this poor dude. D:

So, I'm without much joy right now. I can't be happy while the boys are at odds.
Jan. 15th, 2014 06:49 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I too despaired at the finality of Kevin's death. I had been holding out hope that maybe they would bring him back somehow. :(

But yes, the boys are never really going to go about things the correct way and end up in the happy-place that fic usually brings them too.

But, if this is the lowest point (and I'm sure it is) then it means that from here out, things will get better... at least in terms of relationships/
Jan. 16th, 2014 02:46 am (UTC)
Kevin's death for me has been the most heartbreaking one of all the S&D allies. Even Bobby was tolerable, because he was a crusty old dude, and we'd had 7 seasons of the wit and wisdom of Bobby Singer. But Kevin? Man. That HURT.

Anyway, I can't help but cheer at the further adventures of Crowley -- if there were some way, whenever this series wraps, to keep him alive, I'd cheerfully vote YES. Maybe he and Castiel will hit the road in a dinner-theater version of "Good Omens." A girl can dream, right?
Jan. 16th, 2014 03:15 am (UTC)
Yeah, Kevin's death is horribly heartbreaking because, not only was he just 18, but he was also sort of like a little adopted brother for the boys... and damn, but that hurts.

I guess I'm still hoping that he'll come back somehow - or I'm just still in denial...I think in the Supernatural fandom those two mindsets are one and the same.

I'm also looking forward to what Crowley does next! I think if there was a spin-off with Crowley, there'd definitely be an audience for it!
Jan. 16th, 2014 08:10 am (UTC)
What I don't get at this point (and this can be totally due to the fact that I'm forgetting something from the previous episodes) is why would Gadreel offer to help Dean with Sam's situation in the first place? He had a perfectly good vessel already, and he didn't seem to have a plan to possess Sam Winchester and then use it somehow to his advantage. It seem that in the beginning he was actually going to heal Sam and be on his way. I mean, what the hell, Gadreel?

Find hard to feel sorry for the poor sucker though :)
Jan. 16th, 2014 08:29 am (UTC)
Well that's just the thing, and it's WHY I feel sorry for him. Gadreel WAS honest. He WAS trying to help. He didn't lie to Dean about anything other than his name - and he only did that because he didn't think Dean would trust him if he knew he used to be in jail - and he's also afraid of the other angels, really, so he didn't want his name getting out.

He only went "bad" under Metatron's influence - up until that point, he WAS just helping Dean and healing Sam slowly, just like he said. I mean, case and point, Sam's able to survive on his own now - if Gadreel wasn't slowly healing him as he promised, then as soon as Sam kicked him out he would have collapsed and died again.
Jan. 16th, 2014 08:40 am (UTC)
The thing is - I don't think so. I find it hard to believe he went dark side the minute he met Metatron. He was kinda shady before episode 9. And why would he come up with that lie "I need to go get something from the car" the night at the bar with Dean and Cas? He needed a moment to think? Well turn off, stop eavesdropping and think all you want! Or was it just a temper tantrum?

But Sam didn't die the moment Gadreel left his body - that's a good thing :)

I need the writers to EXPLAIN it all to me!!! :)

Jan. 16th, 2014 09:22 am (UTC)
He didn't go dark side - he's like Cas. He's thinks he's doing things for a good cause - maybe a selfish good cause, but still a good cause. He thinks he'll become second in command in heaven, eventually bring his brothers home - be a hero. Maybe he has to do somethings he doesn't like to get there, but he thinks it'll be worth it. He's wrong of course, this is the same lesson that Sam learned in S4 and Cas learned in S6/7.

And all the "kinda shady" stuff he did before he met Metatron and was tempted into doing bad things can all be explained by the fact that he's an ex-con trying to hide his identity. He went out to the car, because he's afraid of hanging around Cas too much, because a)Dean might tell Cas about "Ezekiel" and then since Cas KNOWS Ezekiel, the truth would come out, or b)angels might still be hunting Cas - and they may find him and then see Gadreel, and then the jig will be up.
Jan. 16th, 2014 12:33 pm (UTC)
I guess you do have a point there. The good angel are never quite that bright, are they? :)

Mood: I prefer the word "trusting." Less dumb, less ass.
Jan. 16th, 2014 09:29 pm (UTC)
I am very satisfied with this episode. It had everything I wanted, and even though of course fans need to want the boys together, I love it when they are apart for whatever reasons.
Because there are times in life where people need distance to see what they have. Like... going on a journey and during that, they understand the good things about home.
Or going to college to learn stuff and because of the distance and the less emotions involved, are able to understand some character-traits in your family.
Or even missing those miserable s.o.b's :-D

Kevin... well, I'm sad he died, though there's never been the ache I felt for losing Bobby or the Harvelles, or Rufus. I never really connected to Kevin, though I felt very sorry for losing all his friends and his mother just because someone made him a prophet.

While we're with the subject: I'm not so sure Crowley is addicted to blood, per se. Maybe he just has a thing for special blood, like maybe a prophet? Or a virgin? Just sayin'... he did refuse Dean's blood, after all.

I LOVE Crowley. I do. I cannot even think about the possibility to lose him - he's the most awesome villain so far. He's twisted and he uses everything to his advantage that he can get - even if that means helping Dean and Sam on the way. But he's not like Meg, who might have actually started to do things not entirely for herself, no. No, Crowley is bad, and he LIKES being bad. maybe he still wants to be loved - maybe that's what got Meg caught in the middle of good and evil?- but if he does, he wants to do evil things, still.

I really love the possibilities the writers made themselves with this character (and that actor brings it right out on screen!)

Hm, about Sam sending Dean away - I wanted that. Because there CANNOT be any kind of forgiveness for not just letting an angel possess Sam - that's bad enough. But that angel turned out to be even more gullible as Sam had been with Ruby, and he turned out to be too useful for Metatron to just let him stay inside Sam unmolested and do good work!

I agree with your view that someone should save Gadreel, at least his name, if not himself. But he lost most of my sympathies when he killed his friend Abner, who just wanted to be left alone. It's interesting, though, that he didn't stab him like he did with Justin Bieber-Boy, but instead cut his throat. Did he take his grace? If so... where is it? And why did he?

So, uh, sorry for getting off topic.
Sam and Dean separating. Dean has to go away, because even if he maybe gets one day that Sam sees his decision as lack of trust, I don't think Dean can feel sorry for not letting Sam die. I don't believe he has that in him. He might even be able to kill him, I do believe he could if it was necessary. But if there was ANY chance that there's another way, he'll not regret going that way.

and if that means sweet-talking Sam into possession... well, so be it. He let CROWLEY into Sam, someone/something that he KNEW couldn't be trusted... but he still did it, and I'm sure there's no regret.
Jan. 16th, 2014 09:29 pm (UTC)

So what I wanna say: when Sam feels betrayed, Dean might realize it. But that wouldn't change anything for him, because what could he do? he'd make the choice again. He has done that so often, I wonder why Sam believes he could just stop doing it.

And also - maybe that's just my view - Sam agreed to keep on living! Dean didn't steal his death, he asked Sam if he'd go on if there was a way, and Sam said basically "yes, if there is a way, I will continue living".

Betrayal in the sense that Dean KNEW that Sam wouldn't agree to the way of saving him, yes, of course. Absolutely.
But the decision "live or die" - that had been Sam's.
Sam was ready to go, and I think he'd have liked to rest.
but he wasn't as ready when there was someone asking him not to, and so I wonder... was he really that ready to go? Dean didn't force him to come back with him, he just begged him to.

Let's see where they take this!

Anyway, yay, Sam and Cas - I think that is really interesting. So many possibilities for being emotional, or maybe exchanging anecdotes about "how to best end the world" (if Dean was there, he could join in that!)

And Dean alone... can he be that alone? Without anyone? I don't think that's a healthy place for our separation-anxious Winchester ;-)

So, I'm fully hooked again.
Jan. 16th, 2014 09:53 pm (UTC)
I agree that Sam DID say that if there were a way he would chose to live. But, Dean knew that Sam didn't consider angel-possession in that agreement...he knew that Sam would never agree to that and would prefer to die rather than be possessed. So, in a way, Dean DID trample on Sam's decision to die, but in a way he didn't. If that makes any sense.

You bring up an interesting point about Abner's death and how it was slightly different... I wonder if there was just a greater struggle? Or if Gadreel DID so something different. I guess time will tell.

Maybe Gadreel can't be redeemed at this point. I don't know... doesn't stop me from feeling really sorry for him.

I'm definitely looking forward to seeing what happens next! :)
Wedge Antilles
Jan. 22nd, 2014 12:59 am (UTC)
I think Gadreel has been looking out for himself from the very beginning with no other real motives. When he was in his first vessel it/he was damaged so he took the opportunity to get a new one as soon as he could, and I don't think he would have ever given Sam back. Plus I would think Sam is really a desirable vessel. After all he was designed to hold the archangel Lucifer. That would have to be like upgrading to a Rolls-Royce or a tank even with Sam's Bar-B-Qed insides.

I would like to get the full story about how exactly Gadreel failed to protect the garden. I assume based on his current actions that Lucifer offered him a good position in the new kingdom and he aligned himself with the Devil which is exactly what he's doing with Metatron. He's also obviously being tricked by Metatron on at least some level.

Overall I think Gadreel is very selfish and stupid, which makes him really human in a way. Everything I've seen him do has been very dim witted on his part and makes everyone he meets want to stab him. It's also kink of adorable that he thought he could beat Sam after the Devil himself had failed, and he would know that because he was in Sam's head and had access to his memories. He is not the sharpest tool in the shed

Anyway we all know that he's going to die bloody at the hands of a Winchester.... or Castiel, or maybe they'll all three stab him at once. That'd be sweet. You can probably tell I don't really like Gadreel much.

I do wonder if that move is going to come back to bite Cas in the ass, because he DOES seem very reluctant to tell anyone about what he did.

I have a feeling that stealing another angels grace may only be a temporary fix. I think he's killing more angels and stealing their grace to "refuel" his mojo. That would explain the reluctance to talk about it. Just a thought
Jan. 22nd, 2014 01:27 am (UTC)
Interesting thoughts!

Plus I would think Sam is really a desirable vessel. After all he was designed to hold the archangel Lucifer.

This is very true, and I completely agree with you. And it was a thought that I had pretty early on... like, if you were given a penthouse apartment, but only until you finished cleaning it and then you'd have to move back to your crappy one-bedroom over top of the rowdy bar...you'd take your time cleaning. :P

I would like to get the full story about how exactly Gadreel failed to protect the garden. I assume based on his current actions that Lucifer offered him a good position in the new kingdom and he aligned himself with the Devil which is exactly what he's doing with Metatron.

This is where we differ, because I like to give Gadreel the benefit of the doubt. I think he must have been tricked somehow (it seems pretty easy to do) and didn't realize Lucifer's plans. I don't think Gadreel would intentionally disobey God, no matter what place he was promised in a new kingdom. I think the desire for a high-ranking and a place in Metatron's heaven is because he wants to restore the honour that he lost with the garden-thing - before then, he'd have been respected and therefore NOT craved more power. But again, that's just my opinion, because we don't actually know what happened. But, personally, I think all evidence points to the fact that it's Gadreel's good intentions are always used against him - because he's a bit of an idiot.

So, yeah, I think he's an idiot, but I don't necessarily think he's selfish... I think he's suffering from the same delusions that Cas had in S6, where he thinks that the means will justify the ends and eventually he'll be in a position where he can restore heaven and bring all the other angels home - and maybe he wants to do that so that the angels will think he's a hero and not throw him in jail for all eternity again, but it's still fundamentally, something GOOD that he wants to do.

Of course, the only reason Cas survived S6 is because the Winchesters have a soft spot for him - they do NOT have a soft spot for Gadreel, so you might be right that he's going to end up perforated.

I have a feeling that stealing another angels grace may only be a temporary fix. I think he's killing more angels and stealing their grace to "refuel" his mojo. That would explain the reluctance to talk about it. Just a thought

Perhaps!! I wouldn't be surprised.
Jan. 26th, 2014 08:45 pm (UTC)
WOW! I'm a little wordy this time
I do like the idea of Dean and Sam's friends up in Heaven teaming together to help bring down Metatron. Although, John and Mary HAVE to be included in that list as well.

I loved Castiel's sympathy towards Dean in this episode. He could have so easily been vindictive and mean towards Dean, especially given their history, but Castiel was forgiving and tried to help and comfort his friend. I do think the short amount of time that Castiel was human really did do him some good, and the fact that he was out on his own, experiencing life as a normal human was the right thing for him, not being holed up and protected in the bunker. But the statement that Dean wants to go after Gadreel and kill him, even if it means killing his brother sends chills up and down my spine. The thought that Dean would be willing to kill Gadreel knowing that that would kill Sam as well is very telling as to where his mind is at. I think he needs a little more time to let his heart catch up.

I didn't like the fact either that Sam/Gadreel took the Impala. Sam never would have done that, but Gadreel could care less. Plus, that means that would slow Dean down without his car. I read a complaint by someone that thought it was ridiculous that they didn't go take one of the cars in the bunker's garage to use, instead of using the car that Castiel had used. The bunker garage never dawned on me while watching the episode, and then thinking back, I don't even think there would be a car in the bunker that the three of them could have used anyway. I think all the cars in that garage were small sports cars, fit only for 1 to 2 people. Not three. Plus, that would mean that Crowley would get a bigger look at this bunker and that is one thing I don't think Dean wants to do.

It was funny that Dean banished Crowley to the back seat and to see Castiel's smug face over that, to only have Dean wipe it away by telling Cas to sit back there as well. There's only one person worthy of the shotgun seat for Dean Remember, Castiel has sat in the shotgun seat before.

I do find it interesting to have Hell in chaos. I think it's much like how Heaven was after Michael and Lucifer ended up in the cage. Heaven divided between Castiel and Raphael, and the rest undecided to go with the victor. So now, there are factions of Hell for Crowley, and others for Abaddon, and the rest are on the fence, waiting for a victor to emerge from the two, and will then put forth their allegiances.

I do agree with you about Abaddon being kind of stupid with killing the NSA girl. She could have been a very good weapon in fighting against Crowley. She could have used her for various information, as well as used her to plant false information to Crowley. That would be the way to go, but probably not enough time story wise to bring something like that in.

Jan. 26th, 2014 08:45 pm (UTC)
Re: WOW! I'm a little wordy this time
You are right. Gadreel has no one to help guide him and tell him that the path he is taking is all wrong. Both Castiel and Sam had Dean to be their guiding star, and Dean has Sam and Castiel, but Gadreel is all alone in this. He has been locked away in a prison for eons and he wants to prove himself worthy of a better angel. Unfortunately, the scheming manipulative Metatron was the first one to find him and call him out, and Gadreel being desperate to right his wrongs, jumps at the chance, and easily takes in the snake oil that Metatron is feeding him. Metatron is very much like Lucifer in this instance. I do think, though, that Gadreel is redeemable. Everyone is redeemable at some point. I mean, look at Meg. She did some horrible things to mankind and the Winchesters in her days. She was still always looking out for herself, but yet, she changed over the years and became a helper and supporter for the Winchesters, to end up being killed by Crowley, protecting the Winchesters and aiding them so they could get away. When she was killed much of the fandom mourned her passing. They had all but forgotten her wicked ways from past seasons. So, if Meg can be forgiven, why not Gadreel. It will be interesting to see how the writers' direct this story.

Given that Castiel now has Theo's grace, I would say that graces are interchangeable. However, remember back in Season 5 (I think) Castiel talking about different levels of angels? Or something like that. Uriel had different powers than Castiel did, so I do think that while an angel can inhabit another angel's grace, he might not have the same powers with that other angel's grace as he would his own. I do think that Theo might have been a lower order of angel, and thus, now that Castiel is inhabiting that grace, Castiel is not able to do all the things with this grace that he was able to do with his own.

I was also very surprised at the compassion Crowley showed Sam while possessing him and telling him that HE didn't kill Kevin. Crowley has never showed that side of him, if he even ever had that kind of side. So, it makes me wonder if that is still part of the cleansing ritual at the end of S8 that is affecting him, and if so, what other affects will that cause on him.

Between Abaddon and Crowley, I would much rather have Crowley reign over Hell than Abaddon. Abaddon is all about destruction, and no rules, where as Crowley is all about rules and, dare I say, integrity in his actions. I would rather they all be shut down forever, but if there had to be a ruler over Hell, I think it would be better for mankind to have Crowley over Abaddon.

Yes, yes, and Yes to all your questions at the end. It is going to be an exciting second half of the season as all this is fleshed out.
Jan. 26th, 2014 09:12 pm (UTC)
Re: WOW! I'm a little wordy this time
I do like the idea of Dean and Sam's friends up in Heaven teaming together to help bring down Metatron. Although, John and Mary HAVE to be included in that list as well.

I don't know, John and Mary might be too awesome and get it done too fast! ;)

The thought that Dean would be willing to kill Gadreel knowing that that would kill Sam as well is very telling as to where his mind is at.

Very true. I think at that point, Dean was just thinking that everything he had done to try to save Sam had been a mistake, and so maybe honouring Sam's choice to die was the right way to go... at least, that's the logic that I'd put behind it, other then just saying - yeah, Dean is in a really messed up place right now and I think he needs someone looking out for him.

Which is why it's great that Cas was kind and forgiving to Dean...but actually not so great (no matter how much I love it) that Cas stayed with Sam at the end of the episode.

I read a complaint by someone that thought it was ridiculous that they didn't go take one of the cars in the bunker's garage to use, instead of using the car that Castiel had used. The bunker garage never dawned on me while watching the episode, and then thinking back, I don't even think there would be a car in the bunker that the three of them could have used anyway.

I saw that complaint too, and I also disagreed with it, but for a completely different reason. The bunker might have cars in it, but those cars have been sitting there since the 1950s, completely untouched. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that they will run without Dean dismantling parts of the engine and putting them back together and lubricating everything and making sure nothing is seized, and cleaning out (maybe replacing) the gas tanks and refilling them, replacing batteries, reinflating tires, possibly replacing rims, etc... and does anyone really think Dean's had time to do that since they discovered the garage?!

Seriously, just leave a car sitting for one year and see how well it runs when you start it up again! More then five and you're in for a big disappointment if you think you can just jump in and drive off.

But even if all the cars magically still worked because of whatever magic spells are on the bunker that kept it dust/mice/spider free all those years...I do think you're right and the cars in the garage are impractical to use, plus they'd need to steal/make new plates for them. It makes much more sense to go with a car that they know already works and will hold all of them.

Remember, Castiel has sat in the shotgun seat before.

Yeah, I know - when they don't have a demon to watch and Sam's not around, Cas always rides shotgun. That being said, I do think that there may of been an element of Dean punishing himself here - leaving that place empty as a reminder of what he did. Dean's self-punishing like that, as you know.

It IS interesting to have chaos upstairs AND chaos downstairs and it's all still just fallout from the apocalypse...well, maybe the hell stuff isn't as much, but still! Interesting!

And you're right about the NSA girl, they'd have to work her into the plot and it'd take too much time...plus, I think the point is that Abaddon is the opposite of Crowley. Crowley strategizes and works in intelligence and espionage, whereas Abaddon goes for brute force and fighting.

Jan. 27th, 2014 04:02 am (UTC)
Re: WOW! I'm a little wordy this time
JOhn and Mary are awesome, that is true.

Agreed. If Dean did have to come to a point where he would kill Gadreel while he was still in Sam, I am sure he would have done that thinking about Sam wanting to die anyway. Like he said, he wouldn't want his brother to live like a muppet but a vengeful angel. So, he would rather his brother die and be at peace than to have to go through that for eternity.

Good point about the cars in the bunker garage. I would like to think that during some downtime Dean goes out there and works on the cars, getting them in running condition. But yea, cars sitting for that long a time, they definitely wouldn't work. Which is why when growing up, my father always advised me to never let my car sit for too long without starting it and letting it idle for a couple of minutes.
Jan. 27th, 2014 06:17 am (UTC)
Re: WOW! I'm a little wordy this time
Exactly. My mum always tried to keep one of her cars off the road in the winter, but if she didn't go out and idle it for a few minutes once a week in the driveway, then come spring she'd always have a mechanic bill coming. And that was just 4 months or so!
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