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I've been playing catch-up with my timeline of S9 (which only lives on my harddrive until the end of the season, because it has a tendency to fluctuate while episodes are still airing).

Anyway, I just got around to timelining 9x07 Bad Boys.

Sidenote: I know there are some fans who prefer the original concept of Dean being 14 in this episode, but I'm going to stick with what the writers decided was better and keep Dean 16 for the purposes of the timeline, because that's now the official canon.

So, I was updating the pre-series part of my Timeline and was pretty intrigued with what it looked like after I was done:

1995 - Sam wins a division championship soccer trophy (Bad Day at Black Rock)
- While Sam waits in the car, Dean kills something (most likely a werewolf) with a silver-arrow to the heart while on a hunt with his father and "embraces the life" of a hunter.(Bloodlust) (Note: Although Dean shows up at Sonny’s in the spring of 1995 with bruises left by a werewolf, I think character-wise, this hunt most likely happened in the summer of 1995. Sam also references a werewolf hunt “last summer” in After School Special, which takes place in Nov. 1997. So it might be safe to assume that as kids, Sam and Dean went on a disproportionately high number of werewolf hunts.)

~March-May, 1995 – While John is on a hunt (Rugaru), Dean loses his and Sam’s food money in a card game. He is subsequently caught stealing bread and peanut butter from a store. He is sent to a boy’s home in Hurleyville, NY, for two months by the local authorities, when John decides not to bail him out as punishment. Sam is told that Dean got “lost on a hunt” and spent the months at Bobby’s until John collected him and then went and picked up Dean. (Bad Boys)
- April 20th, 1995 - Dean is Champion in an “All States Sports Meet” in Wrestling-135lbs weight class.
- I thought early-March to early-May made the most sense for Dean to be at Sonny’s, based on the fact that we know that after one month he had joined the wrestling team, but Sonny made no mention at their celebratory “one month” dinner that Dean had already won the championship.

-May 16th, 1995 - William (Bill) Anthony Harvelle is killed while on a hunt with John. (Hunters Log - S2 DVD special features)

So, to me, it looks likely that the "job" that John was heading to when he picked Dean up from Sonny's was the same job that got Bill Harvelle killed.

Anyway, I thought it was interesting... also, I momentarily wondered why there weren't more Teen Wolf crossovers set when Sam and Dean were kids (ie: their werewolf hunting days) and then it occurred to me that all the characters in Teen Wolf would be 2 years old.  :P  ....though I'm sure kid werewolf Derek Hale would be super adorable.


( 13 comments — Leave a comment )
Dec. 15th, 2013 11:20 pm (UTC)
This is very interesting. Yes, the Winchesters did have a busy Spring & Summer in 1995.

With the thought that John was on his way to meet up with Bill Harvelle on their designated hunt, it does kinda make sense why John would not want to waste a minute, or an evening for Dean to go to his dance. I am not sure if it is Canon, but I am under the impression that John and Bill were hunting something related to the demon that killed Mary, isn't that correct? Or have I just read too many fanfics that correlate that particular hunt with the demon. So, if it was the demon John was after, I can really understand why he wanted to get a move on, and why he didn't want to leave Dean behind for yet another month or two. If John and Bill were hunting a demon in relation to Mary's death, it would really make sense why John wanted to have Dean close, under his protection, and not vulnerable in some boys' home in rural NY.

Also, Dean did say in 'Heart' that they hadn't seen a werewolf since they were kids. And given how Dean was so excited in that episode to hunt a werewolf, it makes sense that they might have encountered several of them when they were younger.
Dec. 15th, 2013 11:36 pm (UTC)
I think you're getting fanon confused with canon. There's nothing in the canon to indicate that the Bill Harvelle hunt was related to the demon. But, there's also nothing to indicate that it wasn't. All we know is that they were hunting in Devil's Gate Reservoir in California, and John used Bill as bait (according to Meg) for whatever they were hunting and the thing they were hunting ripped into Bill to the point where John had to shoot him to put him out of his misery. That's all we know though. To be fair, we also don't know that it WASN'T releated to the demon, so either headcanon is completely fair.

Still, it makes sense that if John had an appointment with another hunter, whether or not it was related to the demon, and he already had Sam in the car, he'd be unlikely to give Dean another day, or even just the rest of the night. Especially if the hunt he was going to be late for was on the other side of the country.

I think it also makes sense that Sam and Dean would have hunted a high number of werewolves as kids, given that a lot of what they encounter from S1 on is new to them - to me, that seems to indicate that John only let them on the "easier" hunts - ie: ghosts, poltergeists, and werewolves. The more complicated dangerous hunts were probably the ones John did on his own, while the boys stayed behind and went to school.
Dec. 15th, 2013 11:56 pm (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't sure about if we knew what John and Bill were hunting. I have read a number of fics that centered around them hunting a demon in relation to the demon that killed Mary. And many times the basic premise of a fanfic is taken from Canon, so I was a little unsure. So, now I know for sure that is fanon. Either way, given that they were hunting in "devil's gate," it does seem plausible that they could have been hunting something demony, or in relation to THE Demon. Although, now that I think about it, in Season 1 when John got a whiff of the demon he took off on his own. If he was one that wanted to hunt out THE demon on his own, given the danger factor, then he and Bill would not have been hunting for The demon in devil's gate. Who knows. (and round and round and round it goes.)

Yes, it does make sense that John wanted to get a move on and not delay their trip if he was meeting up with another hunter. John never struck me as someone that liked to keep other people waiting for him. And, like you said, they had a long drive ahead of them, so it would figure that John would want to get on the road as quickly as possible. Plus, the fact, that John wouldn't want to leave Dean behind because that would mean another trip across the country to pick up Dean. I don't think anybody would want to do that.

I agree with you, it does make sense that the boys would be involved or around John on the easier hunts. Although, werewolves are still dangerous, one bite and they are toast, but still, not as complicated as some of the other hunts I am sure John found himself involved in.
Dec. 16th, 2013 12:16 am (UTC)
The other thing to consider is that John didn't tell Sam and Dean that it was a demon that killed Mary until mid-S1, so we don't actually know when JOHN knew that it was a demon. So, the hunt didn't necessarily have to be demony to make John think it might be related. We have no reference for how early John started putting together the truth about what happened to Mary.

Werewolves are probably the most dangerous thing they faced - and despite the bruises on Dean's wrists, I have a feeling that John probably kept the boys at a distance as much as he could(ie: firing with a crossbow). We also know that the boys already knew what a Wendigo was and were terrified of it. Other than that, the only other monsters referenced that pre-series Dean and Sam seem to know are all varieties of spirits, and witches. So, spirits, werewolves, and witches... and knowledge of wendigos, but no confidence that they could take one on.

I really need to finish my secret project where I have all this information stored - but it's SO TIME CONSUMING, and I've got so much else to do! I wanted to have the clothes updated by Christmas, and that sure as hell isn't going to happen. Sigh....
Dec. 16th, 2013 12:29 am (UTC)
Very true, we didn't know what John knew when. All we have to go on is the conversation between YED and John in S1 with John confirming the fact that he knew about Sam for "awhile now." Awhile is very vague. Very true, John and Bill could have been hunting a variety of creatures that John might have thought could have been involved with Mary. Their pre-series Canon is so vague, it's frustrating at times trying to figure out when John found out about demons and Sam.

I am sure that while the boys were younger John kept them at a good distance from the monsters. But still, he wanted to make sure they were prepared and ready to fight when they got older. I would think that when Dean was older that when John came home from a hunt that he did tell Dean about what he encountered and what happened, especially if John was hurt. Dean has a lot of lore knowledge in his head, so I would bet he and John and quite a many conversation. Even if Dean (and then Sam) didn't actually go on the hunts.

Good luck on your project. I totally understand the best laid plans thing. It's so unfortunate that RL gets in the way so much, isn't it? :)
Dec. 16th, 2013 12:33 am (UTC)
Very true.

And yeah, John definitely shared all the lore he learned with the boys. I have a list of pre-series John hunts too that the boys were well aware of, but didn't take part in. So, he was really only secretive about anything Sam-Mary-YED-apocalypse related...and obviously, he left out the more gruesome details (such as Bill getting killed).

Anyway, thanks for the good luck wishes! One of these days, I'm sure everything will get done. :P
Dec. 16th, 2013 12:44 am (UTC)
he was really only secretive about anything Sam-Mary-YED-apocalypse related...and obviously, he left out the more gruesome details

Reading this reminded me of the several times Dean and Sam have talked about wishing that they didn't know as much as they did when they were kids, Dean wishing that Sam could have remained innocent a little longer, and both of them wishing John would have kept the truth hidden from them - thinking about those various comments, and then your statement about how John probably left out the more gruesome details - I am sure that John shielded his boys from as much as he could, that he did try to keep them "innocent" as long as possible, but given that Dean's innocence was destroyed the night Mary was killed, unringing the bell was not possible. BUT, I do believe, like you said, that John really did shield the boys from the more gruesome aspects of his hunts. So, he was shielding them as best as he could, for as long as he could. I mean, John even wanted to protect the boys from the hunter community that was out there, given that they really only found out about the vast network of hunters' there was out early S2 (except for their small circle of friends, i.e., Jim, Caleb, Bobby). So, yea, except for the YED stuff, which John kept completely hidden, John did try to keep them shielded as much as possible for as long as possible.
Dec. 16th, 2013 12:57 am (UTC)
Indeed. That's also evidenced from the fact that Sam didn't even know about hunting until 1991, when he was 8, and read John's journal without permission. John needed Dean to know because he needed Dean to know the basics on how to keep both himself and Sam safe while John was away - but Sam didn't need to know, so he wasn't told. Since Sam rung that bell himself, we don't actually know when John was planning on letting Sam know - but it's clear that it was a choice to keep Sam innocent for as long as possible.

Part of me thinks that John must have known that everything hinged on Sam from fairly early on - because he did isolate them from the hunting community. Most likely, because he knew that there were hunters like Gordon out there, who would hunt Sam just for being connected to evil, even if Sam had never done anything wrong.
Dec. 16th, 2013 01:17 am (UTC)
It would be interesting to explore that had Sam not read John's journal and found out about the monsters how long John would have kept Sam in the dark. Sam was a smart kid, so they probably couldn't have kept it hidden for too much longer, but still, it does make one wonder what John's intents were of when to fill in Sam on the "monsters are real" aspect of their lives.

I agree with you about John finding out about Sam's connection to evil early on. I mean, Mary died in Sam's nursery, with the demon there, so John, being John, and human, once the curtain was pulled back for him from Missouri, he had to have questioned why was Mary killed in Sam's nursery. So, that alone, makes me think that John started putting two and two together early on. Plus, like you said, the fact that John isolated the boys from the hunting community, he had to have feared that other hunters would put the pieces together as well and didn't want his boys become targets, which is why I think he also moved them around so much. He didn't want to stay in one place too long for that exact fear of rogue hunters, like Gordon, finding his boys. Plus, he didn't even bring them around to Bill and Ellen, so even though he probably trusted those two, he didn't trust anyone else that Bill and Ellen were surrounded by.
Dec. 16th, 2013 01:34 am (UTC)
Yeah, it'd be interesting to know when John planned to tell Sam. Maybe he didn't have a plan - maybe he just thought that he'd be able to kill the thing before Sam needed to know, and they could all just go back to a normal life and Sam would be none-the-wiser? We'll never know.

The other thing that's interesting to remember about John is that he never saw the demon in Sam's room - he saw his son, and he saw his wife on the ceiling above his son... but, for all he knew, they were the only two things in the room that night. We know from Missouri that John had her over to the house and she told him that a great evil had been there - and that she also met Dean and Sam, so would have told John that Sam was innocent, but she also may have sensed the "power" in Sam that she references again in 1x09. So, yeah, John probably knew from the jump that there was SOMETHING going on with Sam, something different about him, something that John had to learn about, and something that he had to hide from other people who might view any human with "power", even latent, as something they needed to kill.
Dec. 16th, 2013 01:48 am (UTC)
Very true. John didn't see the demon, but from what Missouri told him, he did know that something very evil was in the room with Sam first, and then Mary came in the room and interrupted something, so Yes, John had to have presumed that something was "up" with Sam from the get go.

I hadn't thought of that, but so true that if Missouri could sense Sam's powers in 1x09, could she also have sensed something in baby Sammy as well? Very interesting. That just solidifies in my mind more that John knew something was going on with Sam from the beginning. I can see why John would keep that a secret from both boys. And why he was so strict with Dean to keep a close eye on Sam at all times, and why they moved around so much.
Dec. 16th, 2013 02:19 am (UTC)
Hi guys! Very interesting conversation you have going here.
I think that John must have figured out a lot about that night from investigating it in other instances. He did say that he had tried to save other families and could not. I would not be surprised if he heard from someone that they had made a deal with the YED and it was exactly 10 years ago. He may have figured out that Mary had made a deal too - not for what, of course, because there is no one living that is left to tell the tale (except Dean in the future...).
Dec. 16th, 2013 03:06 am (UTC)
Indeed, it's just a question of when he figured it out.

It's all interesting to theorize about. :)
( 13 comments — Leave a comment )