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Rewatch S11: The Chitters (11x19)

Hello! It's rewatch time! It's been a while! (four weeks?!?!)

I guess it's good that I'm getting back into the swing of things with an MOTW.

Let's talk about...

The Chitters

We begin, after the THEN, with two cute little boys... one of which is a cute little queer boy. But at least his brother is supportive and planning to run away with him. I'm guessing their parents sucked big time, if the (presumed) non-queer older brother is willing to take custody of his little bro at 18 and move to California.

And then he dies... and Jesse even doesn't get to pee first.

(Also, Matty, Jesse, Jackie... someone really likes shortened names.)

Sam: "Dude, you even moved since last night?"
Dean: "Sleeping is the new smoking."
Sam: "What? No it's not. It's sitting. SITTING is the new smoking."
Dean: "That can't be right."

- I just like this exchange. Mainly because sleeping makes even less sense than sitting, so Dean, at this point, is so overtired he's just saying stuff.

Sam: "Dean, we'll find Cas, alright? He's stronger than he looks."
Dean: "You know, we gambled with Cas, and now Amara has him."
Sam: "For a reason! Which means he's still alive."
Dean: "I've been with Amara - her beef is with the big guys, with God, with Lucifer - the small fries, even an angel like Cas, doesn't even register."

- So, it's a classic optimist/pessimist argument. Obviously, Dean's worry is easily understandable - they basically have a friend who is being dragged into a God-fight that they can't possibly compete in, nor portect themselves from. Moreover, Cas could possibly be killed as collatoral, simply BECAUSE he and Lucifer currently share the same body. I think Sam knows all this too, but is trying (as one does) to not fall into despair by listing the ways in which Cas may survive. A)he IS freakishly able to stay alive/or return from the dead, and b)As long as Lucifer is alive, there's a good chance Cas will also survive.

Sam: "Look, we'll catch a break on Cas, we have to! It's Karma!"
Dean: "You know, Karma's been kicking us in the teeth lately."

-Uh, guys, Karma doesn't work like that. Though, I do understand that culturally, in the west, we've morphed Karma to mean something other than Karma originally meant... but still. What you're looking for is more like a reap-what-you-sow type thing. I guess we don't have a short name for that, so we coopted karma (which is the similar, except only occurs through the process of resurrection.

Sam: "...only now she too, is a green-eyed mutant."
Dean: "Demon swap suits?"
Sam: "Only one way to find out."

- I like the way they acted this scene - we've seen countless 'this is why we have to do a MOTW this week and not the myth-arc' conversations, but usually they're along the lines of "Let's focus on what we CAN do rather than what we can't." This one is more Sam finding the case, and then seducing Dean into doing it by appealing to his curiousity - and you can see it the way Jensen reacts to Sam's 'only one way to find out' - like, he's upset that Sam's right. He doesn't WANT to take the case, but he's now curious as to what the answer is, and there's only one way to get it.

Ooo! Attractive Sheriff! I'd forgotten about her!

The interview between Dean and the girl is really good too - I'm not copying out the dialogue, because I don't have anything dialogue specific to say - but the scene is really well acted between the actress and Jensen. I'm not sure who the actress is, but she does a good job! (Jensen's good job is no surprise, of course.)

Dean: "...weed alone doesn't conjure up that kind of a scenario. Isn't that right, Sam?"
Sam: "Dude, I was 18."
Dean: "Sinner."
Sam: "It was college. It was probably oregano anyways."
Dean: "Rebel!"
Sam: "You're an idiot."

- This is the same Dean who has alluded to experiencing dropping acid, I should say. So, yes, he's an idiot - and specifically making fun of Sam for things that Dean always encouraged him to do (see S1). Also, I like that Sam has only smoked weed once, and possibly not even enough to get a noticable high, if he's serious about it probably being oregano. (OR, they're talking about edibles, in which case I've had edibles that weren't made right before and as a result couldn't produce a high - which is why I had them, otherwise I wouldn't have eaten them, but the chef was super disappointed in the brownies being "normal" and I was like "woo! normal brownies!") Also, it amuses me that Sam only did weed once in college and that's it... but that's because I live in Vancouver, where 1 our of every 5 people is a recreational pot smoker. THAT being said, I'm not, so... I guess me and Sam have something in common!
- Also, the way Dean says "sinner" should be outlawed. It is FAR too flirty to be saying to your brother.

Dean: "So, we're thinking junkless turned Libby?"
Sam: "Hold up, we're not actually going to go with junkless on this, are we?"
*Dean shrugs*
Sam: "That's a new low even for us."

- Dude, Dean used to call angels junkless all the time - even though that was a specific reference to Dogma and probably not true (especially given that some of the angels took full advantage of their meatsuits.)
- I think Sam's concern is from a toxinomy standpoint - if the first people to discover something, name it, you've gotta be careful what you start calling it or you end up with Jefferson Starships (which is another episode I love, just for watching how disappointed Sam looks in himself when he finds himself using the name.)

Woman: "Right before he disappeared, people saw Pete diddling two women, in public, separate occassions."
Dean: "You mean, they actually saw him in the act?"
Woman: "What does diddling mean to you?"

- *snorts* I just love that line - and her face.

I also love this conversation because of the way that the woman increasingly begins to dislike Dean, and flirt with Sam... it's a really simple comedic device that they've used before, but it amuses me nevertheless.

Sam: "Let's pick up a six pack."
Dean: "Just six?"
Sam: "ah, whatever. Let's hit the books."

- I like little 'pointless' dialogue like that. It makes characters seem more human. Also, I love that they use drinking as a euphemism for research, because they do both at once.

Cesar to the rescue! I love the hero moment!!

Dean: "How long have you guys been hunting?"
Jesse: "Together? About seven years."
Cesar: "We heard of the Winchesters, but we also heard you bit it a couple years ago."
Dean: "Oh, that's a long and ugly ugly story."

- I LOVE when they meet hunters who know who they are - mainly, because at this point all hunters SHOULD know who they are. Also, I like hearing the different knowledge levels people have - who knows that they're still alive, who doesn't, who knows they're trouble, who doesn't.

Sam: "You guys are hunters, right? I'm surprised we've never run into you."
Cesar: "Oh, we're usually in Mexico, but sometimes we make a run over the border into Texas."

- Hunters from Mexico, or New Mexico, or Arizona, or southern California, would be the only hunters never to run into Sam and Dean, since that climate (ie: desert) is the only climate that can't be imitated in Vancouver. (I mean, speaking of climates in broad terms, such as forest, farmland, lake, ocean, mountain, etc. I'm not talking about how Vancouver forests look way different than Vermont forests, and details like that - mainly because then Vancouver forests can really only be temperate rainforests and nothing else - so you're always going to have to suspend your disbelief there.)

Sam: "How do you guys know so much about these things?"
Jesse: "One of them took my brother 27 years ago."
Sam: "I'm sorry to hear that."

- This, of course, is an 'honest mistake' version of something Sam did way back in S3 that I loved as a character point - and that was openly ask another hunter how they got into hunting. This is along the same lines, though not as much of an obvious social blunder. I love it because it strikes to the heart of what makes the Winchesters, and Sam in particular, unique among the modern day hunters. Most every hunter we meet (save for the Campbells, before they were killed off) are hunters because of a traumatic life event. Back in S3, Sam was the only one who couldn't REMEMBER his traumatic event, and so hunting was just something he was raised to do, and didn't have trauma associated with it (other than the trauma of hunting itself and Sam's disastrous childhood - which, Sam blamed more on his father at the time, then the monsters.) Dean is SORT of the same way, he remembers the traumatic event, but hunting/arming-himself was a comfort at a young age, rather than an extension of the trauma. Dean LIKES hunting, even while he simultaneously craves family and stability. Anyway... my point is, I like it when Sam and Dean's weird childhood is a character point that differenciates them from other hunters in way that others them from the people who SHOULD be their peer group.

I also like when Jesse asks them to "take a step back from this one" both Sam and Dean respect the request and don't argue - yielding the floor to the person seeking revenge, but also yielding the floor to the person with more knowledge and skill for the hunt.

Cesar: "Well, one of the reasons why we've been holed up in the trees is because Jesse hates the town and everyone in it."
Jesse: "Because they're ignorant and useless..."

- And I also love how that has two different meanings here. They're ignorant to the danger and useless because they won't listen - and they're also ignorant because they're a bunch of bigots (or were, 27 years ago.)

Dean: "You guys fight just like brothers- you're almost as bad as us."
*Jesse looks uncomfortable*
Cesar: "Well, it's more like an old married couple."
Dean: "Ha, yeah...oh! ...what's it like, settling down with a hunter?"
Cesar: "Smelly, dirty, twice the worrying about getting ganked."

- So, I love this reveal because it's done REALLY realistically (in my humble opinion). Jesse, who is in his bigoted hometown full of bad memories, immediately shrinks into himself when he feels pressure to define his relationship with Cesar as something OTHER than hunting partners. Cesar, who has no bad memories tied to the town, and moreover, is probably MORE honest because he is far away from anyone who knows him (it's the equivalent of internet-honesty - we feel safer rvealing ourselves to strangers than we do to people we know, because we have nothing to lose if strangers reject us.) So, Cesar does the revealing, but in a way where it's not a "we're gay" or "we've lovers" which may be a)innaccurate and b)too intimate sounding - instead he just gives Dean the correct alternative option for why they bicker. It's a relatively safe way to do it, and something that you COULD back out of if you needed to (though Cesar leans into it enough that you can tell he doesn't intend to do so.) Also, it doesn't draw attention from anyone else in the bar. Then, Dean gets it, and in true awkward human fashion, quickly wracks his brain for something to say next - something that both shows he's not homophobic but also treats homosexuality as a normal thing that doesn't need attention drawn to it... so, he comes up with "what's it like settling down with another hunter?" which is a pretty great way to do just that, even though his delivery tells us of the quick and awkward thought pattern that went into composing the question. Cesar, in turn, sees what Dean is trying to do and rewards him by answering his question sincerely and with a touch of humour, which will give people something to laugh at that will break any of the tension built up by the whole "are these guys homophobes?/do these guys think I'm a homophobe?" panic that just descended.
- AND now, after dissecting that conversation, I want to talk about the work "gank" which, SPN has corrupted me, but I believe is heavily features in SPN but not many other shows... so, I looked it up, and using "gank" as "to kill" (instead of "to steal") is, according to the internet, something that arose out of video-gaming/MMORPGs, from slurring together the words "gang kill". Anyway, I DO wonder how often it is used in other TV shows, because I swear it shows up in SPN way more often than anywhere else, and with Cesar using it too - coming from a completely different mother-tongue as he is - it almost makes it, instead of Dean-slang, Hunter-slang across the board.

I also like the actor who plays Jesse - in that, when he looks at/talks to Cesar, his face softens into puppy-eyes - but he hardens up when he looks at anyone else.

Also, I just have to say that I love that they cast two large beefy men as the gay couple - rather than having the sort of... gendered gay couple, where you have a more femme guy and a more masc guy, that perserves heternomativity even in a gay relationship. Not to say that those couples are bad at all, or don't exist, they do! I just think they're over represented in media. But, that's just my opinion, and it's true that I don't watch much TV or movies these days, so things may have changed across the board and I wouldn't really know.

Cesar: "...and Jesse will wait another 27 years."
Dean: "Well, there's four of us now - we'll smoke those sons of bitches."
Cesar: "Yeah, it'll eat him alive if we don't."
Dean: "It's hard to watch someone go through that, isn't it."

- Dean grew UP watching someone go through this. It was his life, from 4-26, watching his father get eaten alive by the quest to avenge his mother. Plus two years of watching Sam do the same thing with Jess.

Cesar: "Yeah - I never had a brother, or a sister, but I've seen it over and over - when someone lose someone when they're young, it never heals over."
Dean: "No, it doesn't."

- And now, I think, Dean goes from being able to sympathize watching first his dad, and then Sam, go through the revenge thing - to basically talking about himself. DEAN lost someone when he was young, and it never healed over - partially, I think, because John didn't let it. By focusing their entire lives around finding Mary's killer, it basically made Mary's death a recurring trauma.
- It makes me wonder how early in the season they started planning for Mary's return.

Cesar: "And the insane thing is - how many hunters have you seen over the years get their revenge?"
Dean: "A few."
Cesar: "Yeah, me too. And they are never fixed, are they?"
Dean: "No, I guess not. But you gotta help them get that revenge anyway."

- I just love this trap, because they're both right. Revenge never helps, but if someone is that hell bent on it, the only thing you can do is aid them - even knowing, that eventually, they'll be left with the same (and possibly more) trauma. Sometimes, the only way out is through - if you let revenge consume your life, then get it, because at least after that you'll be free.

Jesse: "...moved as soon as she could. Still thinks I should have done something - saved him. Everybody did."
- Yikes, to not only lose your brother, but have the whole town BLAME you for it... and on top of that you're a queer boy in the 80s. It REALLY sucks to be you, Jesse.

Sam: "They couldn't accept that your brother was taken by a monster, huh?"
Jesse: "They couldn't accept a lot of things, but Matty did. He was a great brother."

- Awwww... poor Jesse.

Cochrene: "Okay, I'll tell you what - give me your card, and if I remember something, I'll give you a call."
Sam: "Mr. Cochrene, you don't own a phone."

- I just love that line, and Sam's face.

Jesse: "You sonovabitch! You knew the whole time! You know where they were when everybody was suffering!"
Cochrene: "I was suffering too!"
Jesse: "You told me I was making it up! We could have told them together! Found those things!"

- I love this exchange because by "everybody" Jesse really means "I" - While his mother, and the whole town, blamed Jesse for his brother's disappearance/death, Cochrene the truth and he could have eased JESSE'S suffering. The only suffering that could have been eased by the truth was Jesse's (everyone else's grief would still be grief). He chose not to say anything, and in doing so left a little isolated queer boy to be even more isolated, now that he had lost the one person who loved him unconditionally. (Though, I'm going to go the optimistic route and hope that his little boyfriend Jackie may have been a support, so Jesse may not have been completely alone. Though, if his mother moved away 'as soon as she could', it could be that Jesse was then ripped away from Jackie as well, moving elsewhere with a mother who blamed him for his brother's death. Ouch.)
- Cochrene, on the other hand, suffered alone as well, but CHOSE to. Because while children can see adults as potential allies, adults can't do the same with kids. So, Cochrene didn't save Jesse from his suffering, not even to keep him company in suffering - most likely, given that Cochrene doesn't seem to even remember Jesse or Matty specifically, Jesse wasn't even a blip on Cochrene's radar.

Sam: "Jesse, jesse stop - what did you do? Did you just erase her from your life, pretend she went away somewhere?"
- I love how Sam pulls Jesse away, and you think he's going to try to take the sympathetic approach with the old Sheriff - to get him to talk more - but instead he's like "how could you treat the memory of your daughter like that?!" Hahaha, oh Sam.

The other thing I like about this episode is that both Sam/Jesse and Dean/Cesar find the same answer using two different strategies. So, the fight between Jesse and Cesar as to what the best move in comes in at a draw - both strategies ended up working.

Body horror is so gross.

And Dean takes off a head with a shovel.

And Jesse finds Matty, and it's sad. I think it's nice though, that they give him a hunters burial. Also, it just occurred to me that hunters must travel around with white sheets in their car, just in case. That's depressing. It's either that or they steal them from whatever motel they're staying in.

Sam: "You know, whenever you and Dad used to leave me to go hunting, and I wouldn't hear from you for a while, I - um - I was always sure that some vamp, or rugaru or take your pick - I always figured one of them finally got ya. I always figured what to do, you know, the next step to take - I was just lost."
- Oh my god, SAM!!! YOU DID NOT KNOW ABOUT VAMPS OR RUGARUS AS A CHILD! John and Dean NEVER HUNTED VAMPS OR RUGARUS. John may have hunted Rugarus on his own, but never with Dean, and NEITHER of them hunted vampires. You didn't find out Vamps existed until S1 and you didn't find out Rugarus existed until S4. AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO KNOWS THE CANON OF THIS SHOW?! (I'm not as mad as I appear, I'm more just rolling my eyes, because of ALL the monsters to mention, he HAS to mention the two that we know were never hunted pre-series.)

Dean: "We came back though, every time."
Sam: "Yeah."

- That's not what Sam's trying to say, Dean. He's trying to say that he's super thankful that you did come back and he couldn't imagine the pain of being in Jesse's shoes - or rather, that he CAN imagine it, and it is the thing of his childhood nightmares (and has been a reality at least four times in his adult life as well.)

Dean: "And look at Jesse, I mean, he turned out alright."
Sam: "They're a good team"
Dean: "They are. I was thinking - maybe they could give us a hand with Amara, with Cas."
Sam: "Fresh eyes. Could use the extra muscle too."

- Awww, I also love that Sam and Dean are talking about actively teaming up with hunters. And it WOULD be these hunters, because a)they are distant enough from the Winchesters to know of them, but not have any preconceived ideas about them. and b)they understand love (both familial and romantic), which is the main driving force of the Winchesters as well (with more emphasis on the familial... unless you've got your shipping goggles on.)

Cesar: "Because we had a deal - when we finish this hunt, if we got 'em - we hang up our spurs."
Jesse: "Unless you're hides need saving?"
Dean: "No, no we're all set."

- Again, I love the choices in this conversation, because it includes unspoken cues as well. Dean looks disappointed when Cesar mentions retiring, and Jesse picks up on that - he asks DEAN whether the need saving. And when Dean tells him no, Jesse KNOWS that it's not the truth - or at least - not the full truth, but he accepts it for what it is - "we need help, but not bad enough to ruin your dreams."

Sam: "So, what's freedom look like?"
Jesse: "Nice little spread in New Mexico, been paying on it for years, set foot on it - twice?"
Cesar: "We're going to raise horses, and if that goes bust, Jesse used to be an EMT."
Jesse: "Oh, so now I'm supporting your ass."

- My only complaint is the delivery of that last line from Jesse being a little wooden, but it's such a minor thing. Also, I still love the line - because the way he says it, it actually suggests that Cesar has been supporting Jesse in Mexico. (Simply because he puts the emphasis on YOUR rather than SUPPORTING - don't let anyone ever tell you that English isn't a tonal language.)
- Also, as much as I love the idea of Cesar and Jesse being regulars, I also love the idea of a happy ending for Hunters and them living their days out on a ranch somewhere. Also, where are all my Winchester curtain fics where they visit Jesse and Cesar? Or destiel fics where Dean and Cas, for some reason, have to lay low, and they do so on the ranch - and slowly realize they're in love or whatever. (I don't actually read destiel, but I MIGHT read that... MIGHT.)

Sam: "Couldn't do it, huh?"
Dean: "Nah, didn't feel right."
Sam: "Yeah. I know what you mean, two hunters who make it to the finish line?"
Dean: "Yeah, you leave that alone."

- Awww... I wish the same for them. Also, I kind of like the weird awkward feeling of these ending lines, mainly because...well, Sam has TRIED to make it to the finish line 2? 3 times? And every time, either Dean or monsters, just DRAG HIM BACK IN. I mean, sometimes it's Dean, but inevitably it would have been monsters if Dean hadn't gotten there first.
- Or, you could interpret it as them being uncertain about their own future - they couldn't ask Cesar and Jesse to help, because it may in fact mean certain death.... and unless they're cool with that, which they clearly aren't, given that they've been making retirement plans this whole time, then you can't ask that of them. But it does mean that Sam and Dean WON'T make it to the finish line. (Though, I'd prefer if they did, personally. I really want the sunset drive-off ending to the show, even though I know every inch of it - especially in the first 5 seasons is coded as a tragedy.)


Until next time...

Comments

( 14 comments — Leave a comment )
borgmama1of5
Mar. 27th, 2017 04:38 am (UTC)
Not complaining, it's just been a while and I have been busy tearing through a rewatch of the whole series (I managed seasons 7, 8, and 9 in one week each by not doing anything but going to work and coming home and watching SPN) so I'm having a hard time getting my head back to season 11 stuff...

This episode wasn't particularly memorable to me, though, anyway.
hells_half_acre
Mar. 27th, 2017 04:48 am (UTC)
I liked it, but it's very much a MOTW without any ties to the mytharc, so I can totally understand the forgettable nature of it.
supernutjapan
Mar. 27th, 2017 05:56 am (UTC)
Back in S3, Sam was the only one who couldn't REMEMBER his traumatic event, and so hunting was just something he was raised to do, and didn't have trauma associated with it
By S3 he did have a traumatic event associated with it - Jessica's death - which is what made him go with Dean and understand John. Just as Jesse lost his brother to the Chitters, Sam had also lost his girlfriend to a demon: she was burned up on the ceiling right above him. He may have quit hunting all together if that had not happened, so I'd include it as his main reason for hunting after the pilot.

I also think Dean felt his mom's death just as much as he would have at an older age - or more even - and that just because he was "raised" into the hunting life doesn't mean that a trauma was not associated with it. We felt his pain on that bridge on the pilot, just as we felt Sam's in the motel in Salvation. But I think you said something similar to that later on.

The Winchesters and Campbells were not the only families with "the family business" either. The Harvels, and Krissy and her dad, and in Season 12 we have another - don't remember the names of those twins - that is pretty high a ratio considering the number of hunters they have met.

But, in any case, whether hunting was in the family or not doesn't really matter to this question or answer. Jesse learned a lot about the Chitters because he wanted to avenge his brother's death, just as the Winchesters learned a lot about the yellow-eyed demon because they wanted to avenge their mom/girlfriend's death. If someone had asked the Winchester brothers why they knew so much about (yellow-eyed) demons, that would have been their answer too - they killed our mother and girlfriend.

Also the reason why any hunter would know a lot about a certain monster is most probably because they have had run-ins with them before, and the more the info, the more likely they are invested in hunting that particular monster. So, imo, Sam suspected the answer he'd get when he asked that question (that someone close had been killed by the Chitters previously) and he wanted to make sure. Interesting to compare it to Dean's question to Elliot Ness - "So, now, who died in your life and made you a hunter?" Dean assumed there also that someone did die and is surprised that Elliot just chose the life.

bla bla bla :P



Edited at 2017-03-27 05:58 am (UTC)
hells_half_acre
Mar. 27th, 2017 06:17 am (UTC)
By S3 he did have a traumatic event associated with it - Jessica's death - which is what made him go with Dean and understand John.

Yes, but it wasn't his reason for hunting ORIGINALLY. It was his reason for hunting CURRENTLY, but not the story of HOW HE GOT INTO HUNTING, which is what he asked, because he hadn't put it together yet that his "current hunt" motivation of severe grief and trauma was everyone else's "I'm a hunter" origin story. That's what I was trying to get at - it's the reason he made the mistake of asking a way too personal question when he first met new hunters.

I also think Dean felt his mom's death just as much as he would have at an older age - or more even - and that just because he was "raised" into the hunting life doesn't mean that a trauma was not associated with it. We felt his pain on that bridge on the pilot, just as we felt Sam's in the motel in Salvation. But I think you said something similar to that later on.

Yes, I'm not including Dean in this - though like I did say, Dean felt hunting as a balm, or a solution to the horror, I think - at least when he was young - rather than necessary an extension to the horror. Dean, at least in those early seasons, saw hunting as safety and a normal life as inherently unsafe.

The Winchesters and Campbells were not the only families with "the family business" either. The Harvels, and Krissy and her dad, and in Season 12 we have another - don't remember the names of those twins - that is pretty high a ratio considering the number of hunters they have met.

I'd argue this point too. I'll give you the Harvelle's perhaps, but not Krissy and her Dad, as we don't know there origins. Season 12, you're thinking of the witch twins right? I think, in the grand scheme of things, it comes down to what you headcanon for people whose origin stories we never hear. Until we know all the origins, we can't REALLY say whether there's a greater percentage born into it or a greater percentage with a trauma introduction - so, this is a point where I can't argue facts with you, because we don't have them. But you can argue the opposite, and that's fine too.

If someone had asked the Winchester brothers why they knew so much about (yellow-eyed) demons, that would have been their answer too - they killed our mother and girlfriend.


The hilarious thing is that they didn't know much about yellow-eyed demons (or demons in general) at all really. All those years, and they didn't meet a demon until S1. And we only found out in S12 why the demon had yellow eyes! Hahaha... but I get your point. The Winchesters, for example, know the most about heaven and hell, because they were the center of a heaven+hell apocalypse plot.

. So, imo, Sam suspected the answer he'd get when he asked that question (that someone close had been killed by the Chitters previously) and he wanted to make sure. Interesting to compare it to Dean's question to Elliot Ness - "So, now, who died in your life and made you a hunter?" Dean assumed there also that someone did die and is surprised that Elliot just chose the life.

I think we'll have to disagree about what Sam suspected, because I think he was just expecting a "oh, we've seen this before - there was a case in New Mexico not long back..." But, again, that comes down to interpretation, so I can't say that you're wrong and I'm right, or vice versa.

BUT, I totally agree that the comparison to Dean's assumption that someone had to die is apt, because, like I said, I think Dean DOES remember and it's always in his head, that he's in this life because his mother died. He remembers her death, he remembers their life before and their life after...whereas Sam doesn't. I think he knows academically, but not to his deepest consciousness - and it's our deepest consciousness that direct our assumptions. So, Sam made the mistake (the first time, that he hasn't repeated) of not realizing that it was a personal question to ask how someone got into hunting... and Dean made the mistake the other way, by assuming a death and not just a choice.

supernutjapan
Mar. 27th, 2017 07:11 am (UTC)

Yes, but it wasn't his reason for hunting ORIGINALLY.
You specified Sam in Season 3 ;) "Back in S3, Sam was the only one who couldn't REMEMBER his traumatic event, and so hunting was just something he was raised to do, and didn't have trauma associated with it" So, actually you meant, "Pre-series, Sam was the only one..."? I'm still doubtful as to whether Sam would actually use that as a measure when he talked to others, the sensitive guy he is, but as you said, there's no proving anything, just opinion.

hells_half_acre
Mar. 28th, 2017 01:09 am (UTC)
I meant that back in S3 was when Sam made his social blunder (and hadn't yet learned that it WAS a social blunder). Sorry for the miscommunication there. :P

I think that even sensitive people make mistakes sometimes. ;)

Edited at 2017-03-28 01:22 am (UTC)
bratfarrar
Mar. 27th, 2017 12:28 pm (UTC)
Oh my god, SAM!!! YOU DID NOT KNOW ABOUT VAMPS OR RUGARUS AS A CHILD! John and Dean NEVER HUNTED VAMPS OR RUGARUS. John may have hunted Rugarus on his own, but never with Dean, and NEITHER of them hunted vampires. You didn't find out Vamps existed until S1 and you didn't find out Rugarus existed until S4. AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO KNOWS THE CANON OF THIS SHOW?! (I'm not as mad as I appear, I'm more just rolling my eyes, because of ALL the monsters to mention, he HAS to mention the two that we know were never hunted pre-series.)

I've seen a lot of people irked by this--and other occasions when the guys misspeak about the kind of stuff they hunted when young. My approach is just to shrug and chalk it up to the human habit to take current circumstances and overlay them on past memories. But yeah, it would've been neater if it had been, say, rawheads and vetala--or ghosts, which seemed to have been their bread-and-butter back in the day.

Edited at 2017-03-27 12:29 pm (UTC)
hells_half_acre
Mar. 28th, 2017 01:16 am (UTC)
Agreed.

Ghosts and werewolves, or poltergeists and werewolves, if "ghosts" seem to tame by today's standards.

But yeah, I also just chalk it up to human habit.
madebyme_x
Mar. 27th, 2017 02:16 pm (UTC)
This episode was one of my many highlights from season 11! I was very fond of Jesse and Cesar, and how they got their happy ending, and then seeing Sam and Dean thinking about it too. I'm so torn on how I would like Show to end, so I like to be given possibilities (even though like you said, it's been set up as a more than likely tragedy rather than a 'happy' ending. It was such a theme in season 11 though what with Sam placing the retirement village brochure in his treasure box in 11.11)

And yes it is frustrating about the vampire and ruguru comment, but I guess these things have to be expected after so many seasons and so many different writers. But yes, it's still annoying. I think I can remember a comment early on (season 2) about Dean saying something about Mary having a brother (I think he references an Uncle when talking about Mary's grave or something?) which seems to have been forgotten about. *shrugs*

Anyway, I like a good motw, and I really enjoyed this one! (I've touched on Jesse and Cesar and Mexico in a fic - I love the idea of Sam and Dean having that in their back pocket for the future!)

Thank you for sharing :)
hells_half_acre
Mar. 28th, 2017 01:22 am (UTC)
I think I can remember a comment early on (season 2) about Dean saying something about Mary having a brother (I think he references an Uncle when talking about Mary's grave or something?) which seems to have been forgotten about. *shrugs*

It was Mary's Uncle he references in S2, and then in S3, Sam has one episode where he discovers that 99% of the Campbell family has been killed off over the years in suspicious circumstances (which, if the writer's strike hadn't happened, was going to lead up to the reveal that Mary was a hunter - which we ended up getting in S4 in the first time-travel episode.)

But yeah, I chalk the obsession with mentioning past Ruguru hunts with the fact that I think the writer's find "Ruguru" a fun word to use/say. :P

It'll be interesting to see how the show ends when it does. I mean, it DID start out as a tragedy, but technically that tragedy set-up ended in S5...these days, it's been more mercurial in what it might be leading up to... is it still a tragedy and these suggestions of retirement are to twist the knife further? Or are they trying to steer the foreshadowing to suggest a more hopeful ending? It'll be interesting to see, either way.
kailita
Mar. 30th, 2017 06:13 am (UTC)
I hate body horror, so I was NOT a fan of this episode when it first aired. I still haven't rewatched it, but your comments reminded me of some of its good points. :) (As long as Jared and Jensen are on screen together, something good is bound to happen.)

I LOVE that you noticed and appreciated Kandyse McClure as soon as you saw her! :) I know her from Battlestar Galactica, but I love that even without knowing her, you still noticed her. I think she's miscast here (WAY too gorgeous to play some random backwoods sheriff...I hate witches, but I think she would make a fabulous witch, or a saucy crossroads demons...though we don't really get those anymore, sighhhh) - but I'm glad to hear that you think she did an excellent job. I thought so too, but then I thought I might just be biased because I loved her on BSG. :)

Research = Drinking! I love that too. Take out all of the Corporate Suit Angels/Demons and give me all of the "pointless" dialogue in its place. That's what made "Baby" so good.

Great connections to S3 with Dean's potential "experience" with substances, and Sam's occasional slip-ups with "How did you get into hunti - oh wait, yikes, why would I ask that???"

I loved the introduction of a Mexican hunter. I would love to see the Winchesters take on a chupacabra. And La Llorona is still a super popular urban legend (at least among my students), who is basically the Woman in White. I thought Jesse and Cesar had as much (if not more) of a backstory than Isaac and Tamara in Magnificent Seven. It's always interesting to see how new hunters (or old hunters, who are new to us) are treated. When Sam and Dean started talking about bringing those guys in to help with Amara, all my alarm bells went off, like "These guys are so dead." But thank goodness they just retired!

I love your crusade against retconning vampires and rugarus into the preseries, and I support it 100%. :) Weren't we talking about how rugarus have kind of become a go-to monster for the hunts that they don't show, even though we only ever interact with one in the series? I feel like the same is kind of true for wendigos. ;)

Regarding the end of the series, I used to be "Blaze of Glory" all the way...but now I see how they could maybe pull off "Driving Into The Sunset" and have that work. It's a very different show than it used to be. I wonder what the majority of the fans want? Is that a divisive question in fandom, or do most people lean one way? I don't envy the writers who will end up writing that series finale (you know, in season 15). I recall noticing several nods to retirement in season 11, and thinking they were trying to set something up there...but then that has mostly faded away in season 12. I keep wondering if they'll return to it.

Edited at 2017-03-30 06:14 am (UTC)
hells_half_acre
Mar. 31st, 2017 07:09 am (UTC)
I LOVE that you noticed and appreciated Kandyse McClure as soon as you saw her!

Yeah! She was great. I don't know her from anything else, but I was surprised they didn't use her in a bigger role.

Research = Drinking! I love that too. Take out all of the Corporate Suit Angels/Demons and give me all of the "pointless" dialogue in its place. That's what made "Baby" so good.

Agreed agreed agreed.

Weren't we talking about how rugarus have kind of become a go-to monster for the hunts that they don't show, even though we only ever interact with one in the series? I feel like the same is kind of true for wendigos. ;)

Yeah, I think they use monsters for "unseen hunts" that they either a)like saying, or b)are recognizable as monsters, but don't necessarily make good TV. Like... there's not much more nuance then we've already seen with a Rugaru hunt. You know? Same with the Wendigo.

Regarding the end of the series, I used to be "Blaze of Glory" all the way...but now I see how they could maybe pull off "Driving Into The Sunset" and have that work. It's a very different show than it used to be. I wonder what the majority of the fans want? Is that a divisive question in fandom, or do most people lean one way? I don't envy the writers who will end up writing that series finale (you know, in season 15). I recall noticing several nods to retirement in season 11, and thinking they were trying to set something up there...but then that has mostly faded away in season 12. I keep wondering if they'll return to it.

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what they do. I'm not sure if we can ever do a complete poll of the fandom to see what people prefer. My guess is that it'd be pretty evenly split.

I liked the S5 ending and thought that (if Sam hadn't come back) it was a really great ending to the show... and it's similar to an ending that Jensen imagined one time (super tragic-style is Jensen's vote, it seems.) Jared has mentioned both blaze of glory and the sunset, so I think he's not sure. Anyway, my point is that early seasons I was fine with tragedy, but these days I'm kinda hoping they do happy... we'll see though. It DOES make me wonder about the retirement hints (like Sam keeping the brochure for the retirement home, etc.)

I have my own REALLY preferred ending, but the only person who agreed with me on it was Ben Edlund, and he's no longer with the show. But what I'd like to have happen is for the Winchesters to become immortal demigod like beings. I'm probably in the minority on this one, I realize - but that's my ideal ending. Where in 2101, we see some hunters sitting in a bar chatting, and they're like "you ever seen them?" and the other hunter is like, "nah, that's just stories..." and the guys is like, "no, it's real - things get bad enough for you, the Winchesters will come. Happened to a friend, he thought he was about to draw his last breath when he hears this engine...like, you know, one of those old gas engines that they don't even have anymore... and this black car comes out of nowhere, and there they are - The Winchesters. Not aged a day. They saved him." Like, just as cheesy as that... I want them to become the angels that hunters pray to... the kind the Winchesters always wished for and never got for themselves.

Anyway, probably not going to happen.
kailita
Mar. 31st, 2017 07:31 pm (UTC)
Even though that sounds insane, conceptually...after you explain it, I think I could go for that! That actually kind of moves me! So if anyone prays the Prayer of Dean Winchester from season 5 ("Please...I need some help"), they won't have to go it alone. And the Winchesters can bypass heaven and hell to keep doing what they've always loved, but without the fear of death or (more importantly) losing each other. I...kind of love that.
hells_half_acre
Mar. 31st, 2017 07:58 pm (UTC)
SEE!!! It's the best ending ever!

Edlund, on the DVD extras of years past, would often ramble about the show and in his ramblings, I realized that he had a similar vision for the end... which was part of the reason I was DEVASTATED when he left the show. Because as long as he was there, I thought maybe my ending had a shot.

But, we'll see...

I really do love the idea though on SO MANY LEVELS.
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