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New episode!

Once again watching from home, due to having a cold and not wanting to infect my friends. So, no drinks, but still poorly kept notes.

Let's get started....

Weird Ketch to start us off... asking to someone to tell him a story. This is, of course, after the THEN, which I didn't really pay attention to, because I KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENED ON SUPERNATURAL, YOU GUYS; HAVE YOU NOT SEEN MY BLOG?

Family dinner! Well, family dinner with random dude... who I DID recognize as the other hunter the UKMoL had been talking to back in 12x09. Dean tries, and fails to hit on the waitress (Dean, you of all people should know that you shouldn't bother to hit on waitresses). But the waitress DOES show interest in Castiel - so, obviously she has a type.

Dean is still thrilled, because apparently they've been looking for "teachable moments" - and, that just tickles me, because Cas has been with them for 11 years, if you don't skip years, and 9 if you do. And he's been practically excommunicated from Heaven for roughly 8 of those years.... like, 8 years in, Dean's still trying to find "teachable moments" and that's just cute and hilarious. (Also, wow, Supernatural has been on a long time.)

Then Mary actually is a mom and gets everyone to shut-up and pay attention to her. I loved Sam's "Sorry Mom" ...awww...

Apparently they are hunting a demon who fishes every night for exactly 45 minutes. Um... I wonder what he's fishing. I have only been fishing once personally, but I know other people who fish, and they USUALLY use it as an excuse to spend a good deal of time outdoors enjoying themselves. Though, I guess if you did it every day, it'd stop being special, and you WOULD time yourself? What does he do when he doesn't catch a fish in that 45 alloted minutes? Does he just not eat fish? And is he having it FOR dinner or saving it for the next day? 8pm is kinda late to go fishing... so weird.

Wally claims he called them in because demons are above his paygrade. He's Sam and Dean circa S1! Hahaha... seriously though, it DOES bug me that he says something along the lines of "you find a rugaru, I'm your man - but demons are a bit beyond me." DUDES, Sam and Dean hunted ONE Rugaru in S4 and they didn't even know they existed before then! And yet everytime we reference someone else's hunt now, or a hunt in the past, it's always a Rugaru. HOW COMMON ARE FRICKEN RUGARUS?!!?1!? They SHOULDN'T BE. Is it just because it's fun to say? That's it isn't it! It's fun to say. Sigh.

Oh yeah! Random dude's name is Wally. Yay! Kind of an unfortunate name - my apologies to any Wallys... maybe go by the full Wallace.  Wallace is a fine name and reminds me of Veronica Mars, which was a good show in it's first and second season, though I lost interest in the third and never saw the movie. But I digress...

Dean introduces Castiel to the waitress as "my shy but devastatingly handsome friend." Oh Destiel shippers. I heard you squee at a distance... and then curse the fact that Dean was trying to get Cas laid by a female, because obviously this show is just queerbaiting and RAR! I heard it all... at a distance, where I remained, spending exactly 45 minutes fishing like a weirdo.

Dean of course sets the waitress up perfectly to make this flirtation as blatant as possible by asking her when she gets off, to which she replies "whenever I can" with a look to Cas. Lady, the guy's adoptive-mom is at the table! Just because they're the same age... oh, right, they're the same age. Waitress had no idea that she was flirting with a guy right in front of his mom. Actually, come to think of it, what was Dean doing flirting with a waitress right in front of his mom? Man, I don't even like having FRIENDS in front of my mum.

Then my notes say:
Wally is nervous and probably going to die.
Yup!


Basically, we fast forward to the fight, and it has not gone well. Castiel is dying and Yup, Wally is dead.

Notes here say The wounded angel. Weird. And that's important if you want to track how long it takes me to realize this is a Reservoir Dogs tribute.

We back up to 5:20pm when Mary, Wally, Sam, Dean, and Cas all meet up outside the diner. Castiel is still driving that poor farmer's hay truck. Is there still hay in the back of it? Castiel should stop by a petting zoo at the very least and donate that.

Dean thanks Cas for coming, even though he's busy. But Cas says he's not really busy, since he hasn't made any headway on the Lucifer's kid case. Wally laughs and asks if that's a joke or code for something else - and everyone just gets quiet and stares at him. I kind of love it - I love everything that shows just how MILES away from all the other hunters Sam and Dean are. It's like level 2 Ranger VS. a level 30 Ranger (by D&D 3.5 standards, because that's all I ever played.) And for those that don't play D&D, it's like... uh... yeah, I don't even know.... a kitten versus a hippo? "I killed a mouse yesterday!" "That's great, kid, I killed a lion... and an alligator... and a man. It was a busy day."

Sam has a new coat and it's distracting me.

"AH! It's a take off of Resovouir Dogs! I'm slow on the uptake. Awesomesauce." - and there we go. It took until the slow-mo walk. And probably if they hadn't done the slow-mo walk, I wouldn't have even gotten it. Also, those are my actual notes - I don't know how to spell Reservoir. Firstly, because I don't SAY that first R, and secondly because I'm Canadian and when in doubt, I just stick another U into a word. I looked it up in order to spell it correctly, because I could, at the very least, tell that I had no idea how to spell it.

Then we fast forward to the house, when they're setting up to kill the demon, and we see Castiel come inside looking for Mary, only to have her step out of the basement and then claim that she was in the bathroom. That was CLEARLY THE BASEMENT. Mary, what the heck are you hiding? MR. PINK?!?!1 (I don't remember which one was Mr. Pink... I just remember there was a Mr. Pink... maybe Mr. Pink was Castiel.)

The demon comes back early, but they're all set. Only, it's....Is not a demon?! But hates angels! Yellow eyed demon?!?!1

And this is where I start getting really excited that we might actually find out why Azazel had yellow-eyes when no other demon does! AND WE DO! But we'll get to that in a bit...

Castiel is wounded after being thrown through a window and onto the gravel driveway and the demon follows him out and pulls a weapon out from behind his back and... whoa a STAVE?1?!

Oh man.,.,.

Castiel gets stabbered in the spleen, but Mary arrives to run over the yellow-eyes demon, who then disappears. She gets Castiel to a nearby barn. He is not doing well.

Cas and Dean arrive and Mary tells Sam about how the demon had yellow-eyes. To which Sam replies, "Mom, what the hell did you get us into?" And man, Sam could have asks that exact same question of Mary 14 years ago and it'd STILL be about a yellow-eyed demon. And I don't think the irony is lost on Mary either, judging by her face.

Next title card is "Mother Mary"

Oh, I like this song. Mary called WALLY! Not the other way around.

That's what my notes say - so, basically, we find out that this job didn't come from Wally, it came from the UKMoL. Mary needs Wally to call the boys in though so that they don't ask questions about where the case came from. Wally asks Mary about how it's going with the UKMoL, because he also heard their pitch and then told them to shove it. Mary says they've sent her on a lot of hunts and she's saved a lot of lives - but she deftly (or not so deftly) avoids answering the question "do you trust them?"

We then fast forward to outside the diner, where Wally asks Sam and Dean how they feel about the UKMoL. And Dean very succinctly says,  "Yeah, they got gear, but they tried to kill my brother." And that's it for him, and it looks like that's news to Wally, who must be looking at Mary a bit askance, since you know, trying to kill Dean's brother means they tried to kill Mary's son. BUT, then they did help escape them from prison... though, not really? I mean, a little? Sam and Dean helped themselves and I guess they helped in that Sam and Dean weren't alone when Billy arrived, so Cas could kill her instead of having one of the boys die. So, yeah, they helped a LITTLE but it was mostly circumstantial.

Then we fast forward again to the house, and we see Sam try to check in with Mary before the fight - find out if she's okay, because he knows this isn't what she wanted in life. Mary says "since when it life about getting what you want" and leaves the room... but, um, geez, I kinda think Mary should have picked up on the fact that SAM sounded like he needed to talk. Also, Mary, you're kinda doom and gloom there, I think you SHOULD talk to Sam... or someone. I have a feeling Mary is doing that classic Winchester thing (and human thing) where she's pushing people away because she needs them and doesn't want to admit it.

We get to see what Mary's secret mission is for the UKMoL - and it's behind the painting of Michael killing Lucifer, and is an artifact of some kind (or really a box with a yellow light in it. Haha).  Though, the fact that it is behind that painting does not bode well, given that the painting is of an event that almost killed Sam and Dean before.

Fast forward again and we get Mary texting the UKMoL once she gets Cas to safety - and apparently they didn't know that the demon had yellow-eyes.

Dean arrives and is in immidiate denial that Cas is dying, even though Cas is positive he is.

I love the small things, like Dean looking at the wound, but then not letting Cas look at it once he sees it - and just, yeah, smiling like "no, no don't worry about that."

Then Crowley shows up and announces: "You idiots, you're all going to die."

AND THEN WE GET MYTHOLOGY!!! WOO!

The demon's name is Ramiel. He's a Prince of Hell. Castiel claims the princes are dead, but Crowley informs us that this isn't true. The princes were the first generation of demons, after Lilith (pretty much what I headcanoned!), and before Atlantis was swallowed by the sea. They were made to be Generals to lead demonic armies in a war on Heaven (which is in keeping with Azazel's rhetoric). And them having more angelic names suddenly makes sense, if they were the first and personally named by Lucifer!

THEN we get a flashback of Crowley's -  to "six years ago" WHICH, according to the show's time-keeping, which goes by seasons, not actual years, this would put them just before S6. If you counted years without skipping any though, it'd put him in S7 and wouldn't make any sense at all. :P

Anyway...

We find out that the stave isn't a stave or a spear, it's a lance.

(Also, apparently the word Stave is SUPER archaic? Am I the only one who knows that word? Google seems to think I mean "Staff" which, well, yes an no - there's a staff involved, but I meant Stave... I swear that's the word for a type of quarterstaff weapon with a blade on one or both ends... am I out to lunch? Someone help me here.)

It's the Lance of Michael, to be exact. It kills Demons instantly, but makes angels die a slow death - because there was only one angel Michael intended to kill with it.

Basically, Crowley offers it to Ramiel, who mentions it runs on runes - so immediately of course, I know that those are going to be the key to helping Cas somehow. Yay me!

The second gift is from Crowley, and that's what Mary took from Ramiel's house. Crowley gave Ramiel these gifts as "coronation" gifts, because this was after Azazel, Lilith, and then Lucifer had died/been-caged. Which means that my headcanon on who the previous Kings of Hell were was completely accurrate. (Seriously, I'm loving this episode for the solid mythology.)

Ramiel isn't interested in ruling Hell though and likes his fishing routine, so he offers the crown to Crowley. Interesting! This makes Crowley appear less shrewdly conniving as we previously thought (the idea that he'd played the apocalypse to his benefit, that kingship was his plan the whole time, made him seem like a genious in S6.) HOWEVER, this isn't a bad thing, because it ALSO explains why Crowley has so much trouble holding on to his Crown - why he's not sure how to negotiate maintaining power... because before he was "king of the crossroads" because he's good at deals and engratiating himself to the right people... but that's not necessarily going to keep him in power, since it's easier to get a good deal if people underestimate you, and people usually OVERESTIMATE people in power.

Back to the episode though...

Ramiel gives us a rundown of who, among the Princes of Hell, are left. We apparently have Ramiel, Asmodius (who has hobbies), and Dagon (who has toys). None of them are interested in rulling hell, nor are they Lucifer fanatics like Azazel was. (Man, guy creates you and you can't even stay particularly loyal - so ungrateful. :P )

Crowley "graciously accepts" but Ramiel makes him promise that the Princes of Hell will be left alone, and if anyone ever disturbs them, Crowley will be completely to blame. So, yikes.

Back in the barn, Dean is still in denial and insists that there's always a cure, and they'll just beat up Ramiel until he gives it to them. Crowley scoffs, but Sam points out that they've killed a whole bunch of people, so they can totally do it. Crowley accurately points out that it took them months of planning and sometimes far more powerful help to defeat those other guys, and right now all they have is a few minutes and a barn. So, there's just no time, and that he's sad too because he likes "feathers" - and then Dean gets angry and tells Crowley to get lost if he's not going to help. So Crowley disappears.

And the boys try to take down Ramiel in a barn.

They got the brass knuckles...oh! Probably stole it off the woman they killed. - Only Supernatural Notes would have me be like "oh yeah, they killed that woman and probably stole her stuff, that's cool."

Then we find out that Crowley IS trying to help. He's outside talking to Ramiel, trying to save his friends - awww... Though Crowley claims they aren't his friends, that he just makes "deals with those I can use". Ramiel calls them "three humans with one good liver between them and a busted angel." But Crowley insists that the Winchesters are an asset. Really though, we can tell that he just likes them. He's gone against them twice, mind you, but he's always gone INDIRECTLY against them, because I mean, he's not dumb. And I think since MoC Dean, Crowley really has fallen in love with them a little... I mean that... he was only mad about Sam trying to kill him for half a second, and then he got over it.

Of course, this conversation culminates with Crowley getting thrown through the barn door.

We back up a little bit before Crowley's (second) entrance, to see Cas trying to say goodbye, and it's pretty heartwrenching. Also, this is the second Cas love confession we've gotten in the past 4 episodes.

"Knowing you has been the best part of my life."
"You're my family. I love you. I love all of you."
Then he begs them to run away so that the last thing he sees isn't their deaths. But Sam tells him that's not going to happen, and they're going to keep fighting, because they're "fighting for YOU, Cas." And that Cas is family, and "We don't leave family behind." Awwww... seriously, group hug.

They trap Ramiel with holy oil (seriously, can Cas like, MAKE holy oil now - where are they getting it all? Is that old earthen urn magic? Maybe that's it.)

Ramiel says there's no cure.

Dean asks if he knows who they are - but Ramiel says he doesn't care, though he ads that Dagon has taken an interest in Lucifer's kid. So, that's good to know for the future - whenever we catch up with Kelly, there's going to be another yellow-eyes demon to contend with. Also, the fact that Dagon might be after the kid cements the fact that there's a possibility the Nephilim will indeed be dangerous and not just another waitress in Deep Cove... because if a Prince(ss) of Hell raises it, it's PROBABLY not going to be good news.

Anyway - what Ramiel is upset about is the fact that someone stole from him. And then Mary starts making the guilty faces, but no one notices. She also doesn't give up the game, even though Cas is dying... but, I suppose that's fair enough, since you don't negotiate with terrorists and Ramiel has not promised at all that he'll cure Cas if his thing is returned to him.

Then it's fight time! People get some staff attacks to the face, but thankfully not with the pointy bit, and then Sam manages to disarm Ramiel and then stabs him with his own weapon (or Michael's weapon, as the case may be) and yeah... here's a lesson for you: If you are near invincible, don't bring a weapon that can destory you to a fight.

Ramiel is dead, but Cas is still dying. Now he's coughing up gross black ooze. The Winchesters all run to him, ditching the weapon because who the hell cares when they're friend is dying... and then it's all about making sure they're there for Cas in his final moments, I guess. Meanwhile, Crowley gets up and figures out that the runes are the key, so he breaks the lance - and Cas is cured! Yay!

Crowley then throws down the broken pieces and disappears.

I love the shot of both Sam and Dean simultaneously helping Cas to his feet.

Then someone (Cas, I think) wonders what Ramiel was talking about with the whole "stealing" thing. Just as Mary's about to confess, Dean - who has only been looking at Cas - says "who knows what that crazy man was talking about. Let's go home." Aww....

Dean picks up the broken lance on his way out though - smart boy.

One Last Thing title card.

We're back in the diner with Mary and Ketch. Ketch is fairly taken aback by the story. Mary has taken issue with the UKMoL sending her on that Hunt, given that she didn't have the right intel and "almost lost one of my boys." Awww... she's including Cas as one of her boys!! Then Mary promises "anything like that happens again, anything, and I will burn you down, all of you." "Is that a threat," "It's a promise."

And I think we now know from which parent Dean got his ability to threaten!

Man, I'd love to see Mary burn the UKMoL to the ground.

We also find out what the artifact that Mary stole was... The Colt!!

Mary mentions that she heard about it from her father - and that there are only five things in Creation that it can't kill. It makes me wonder if Sam and Dean haven't told her about how THEY used it... the fact that she mentions only her father when she talks about knowing about it. It wouldn't have been in John's journal, since that's been a static document since the beginning of S1 and Sam and Dean have their own journals (at least, that's my headcanon). But, you'd also think that Dean and Sam would give Mary a BASIC rundown, given that they mention caging lucifer and killing Lilith and all that jazz. So, she MUST know.

Anyway.... just before the final tag, let's talk about UKMoL and Mary some more.

First, let's talk about how I think the UKMoL aren't that dissimilar to Wally. They LOOK fancy and they talk a good game, but I think they have no idea the level of stuff they're dealing with when it comes to the Winchesters. Both times now, that they've actually been told about what the Winchesters were doing (rather than following them on their more routine hunts) they've been taken aback by it. Lucifer, Ramiel... hell, maybe even Crowley's presence possibly astounds them. I kind of feel like what they're attempting to do here is put a leash on the American hunters, and they're thinking that they're leashing is a golden retriever, but really it's a wolf.... or, it's like Napoleonic-era Generals traveling forward in time and trying to direct a modern army - there'd be no way in hell a modern army would let that happen, since "get on your horses and ride straight at the enemy" would get your killed in an instant. Yes, their system works for the island of Great Britian (even if it's merciless and therefore amoral), but they're dealing with things FAR greater and more complex in America, things they've never even considered, even with all their fancypants gadgets.

Second, Mary - I do wonder about her psychology a little and the fact that she's trying out this situation where she's basically directed where to go by the UKMoL. It occurred to me, while I watched, that the last time Mary hunted, she was very much under the direction of her authoritarian father.... I mean, YES, she hunted a little bit after her and John got together too, but I think the bulk of her hunting was done as a teen under her father's command. I wonder if there's something appealing to her, familiar, about having orders to follow. Like... Dean is sort of that way, or used to be. He took comfort in John's orders, and a lot of him falling apart after John's death was him trying to cope with that loss of security in knowing what to do... it's why he briefly was seduced by Gordon.... anyway, those are just some thoughts I had, not sure if they hold water or not.

Now, we get to the final scene of the episode, where Crowley is Hell, with... wait, what did he have? Nothing. He had nothing. He was on the phone (I actually had to look at the episode. My notes are so bad, I couldn't remember what he was doing.) Anyway... he was on the phone and the demons had failed to find the Colt in the house... and he WANTS it. (Too late, Crowley.) And then we get someone in a cage singing. And, oh dear, Lucifer doesn't seem to be in his deep dark 9th circle of Hell Cage... he's in the dog cage in the corner of the thrown room. That can't be good. At least he's vesselless?

Not going to lie, I kind of wish they'd bury the Lucifer plot again - put him back in the hole, make it final. In my opinion, he should have never come out of it...but WHATEVER.

Lucifer is teasing Crowley, questioning why he saved the Winchesters, when it's only a matter of time before they come for him. Crowley tells him to shut-up and refers to him as Dog, Lucifer responds with "that's not my name" and flashes his red eyes, just so that we're clear that the guy in the shadows who sounds like Mark Pellegrino really is Lucifer. I'm still not a fan of the red eyes on Lucifer, but whatevs!

And that's the episode! It was a good one!! I enjoyed all the mythology!

Next week looks like things are amping up some more....

As per usual, let me know what you thought in comments!!

Comments

( 36 comments — Leave a comment )
Elaine McCourt
Feb. 17th, 2017 08:11 am (UTC)
I loved this episode! Best ep since Baby, for me.

I heard Asmodiel for the fourth Prince of Hell, but Google tells me Asmodel was a fallen angel, so I guess that might be it?

A stave is a wooden staff, with no weapon attached to the end. Lances, polearms, and spears all have pointy metal bits. Thank you, D&D :)

It's not entirely clear to me if Mary gave the Colt to Ketch at the end. He asked if he could see it, but it was kind of ambiguous. To be confirmed, I guess!

As for Lucifer.. yes, that was Pellegrino. His name flashed up as special guest right at the end credits. So good to see him again!
hells_half_acre
Feb. 17th, 2017 09:17 am (UTC)
Yes, I'm not sure where I'd rank this one, but it's definitely up there and a really strong episode all around.

You are probably right and it's Asmodel or Asmodiel. I didn't back up the episode or anything to make sure I'd gotten it right

Good point about the Colt! I'd ASSUMED that UKMoL was after it - more gadgets for their collection, etc. Not to mention the fact that Ketch seems to like shooting people. But, we didn't really get that confirmed, so who knows!

Man, I never read words on the screen unless they have to do with time or location. It's like my brain just doesn't recognise any other words. I knew it was Pellegrino as soon as I heard his voice - but it's cool that they held his name off until the end credits so it was as much as surprise to everyone else as it was to me!
hells_half_acre
Feb. 17th, 2017 10:44 am (UTC)
GLAIVE! I got the word confused with glaive - that's what happened.

Okay, it's now nearly 3am, but I've solved the mystery as to why I thought it was called a stave.

It's obviously been far too long since I played D&D if I'm getting my glaives and staves confused.

ramblin_rosie
Feb. 17th, 2017 08:20 am (UTC)
Still not watching current canon, but I had to comment about this:

it's like Napoleonic-era Generals traveling forward in time and trying to direct a modern army - there'd be no way in hell a modern army would let that happen, since "get on your horses and ride straight at the enemy" would get your killed in an instant.

You don't even have to go as far as introducing time travel. This kind of thinking is precisely why the British lost the American Revolution and got fought to a technical draw in the War of 1812, and why the French failed to take over Mexico under Maximilian, and why the first white force capable of posing any serious threat to the Comanche Nation was Texas Rangers armed with Colt revolvers, and why even the US Army's commanders who were trained in European methods of warfare would have lost the Mexican-American War had they not gotten it through their thick skulls that they needed to listen to the Rangers. Things are different here, in RL and in SPN, and anyone who ignores that fact does so to his own peril.
hells_half_acre
Feb. 17th, 2017 09:13 am (UTC)
Thank you!! I wanted to bring up the civil war because I had a HUNCH that was the case - but I am SO not well versed on American history that I didn't want to speak out of turn. I really only know European history and a bit of board world history (though, I could have mentioned WWI, but that's slightly different because BOTH sides were caught off-guard by the different form of warfare they had invented.)

Though, I suppose I could have mentioned the Boer War, since something similar happened there - but again, I only have fleeting knowledge and didn't want to offend with ignorance or misremembered facts.

But that's besides the point, I LOVE that there's actually REAL HISTORY about how things just function differently in North America, and always have, then they have in Britain - simply because of the different culture that's influenced by the different landscape and resources.

Thanks so much for chiming in with the POWER OF KNOWLEDGE!
khek
Feb. 18th, 2017 02:10 pm (UTC)
Also along those lines, it may be why the BMoL are so surprised by the difference in monsters in North America over what they have in Britain. How many of American monsters are from other cultures? Britain may have vampires and werewolves, along with Nessie and the fae, but if they've been in the business of killing everything before they do anything, they probably don't often encounter monsters from other cultures--like rakshasa, shojos, shinwalkers...and even rugarus. :)

ramblin_rosie
Feb. 18th, 2017 06:03 pm (UTC)
And then there are native monsters like wendigos and native problems like ghost sickness....
hells_half_acre
Feb. 18th, 2017 08:15 pm (UTC)
Well, Britain has the same level as immigration as America, though the demographics may be different. BUT, they probably HAD that immigration when the BMoL had already got the border checks set-up... so anyone that immigrated was probably caught before they were established.

But, as ramblin_rosie says, they wouldn't have the native monsters, or have ESTABLISHED "foreign" monsters (technically, werewolves and vampires are foreign in America too.)

Also, it very much appears that they don't have the Judeo-Christian mythology problems - as the BMoL seem undisturbed by Cas, so much have angels on some sort of "safe" list... which just goes to show how little they deal with angels. :P
liliaeth
Feb. 17th, 2017 09:27 am (UTC)
Ramiel isn't interested in ruling Hell though and likes his fishing routine, so he offers the crown to Crowley. Interesting! This makes Crowley appear less shrewdly conniving as we previously thought (the idea that he'd played the apocalypse to his benefit, that kingship was his plan the whole time, made him seem like a genious in S6.) HOWEVER, this isn't a bad thing, because it ALSO explains why Crowley has so much trouble holding on to his Crown - why he's not sure how to negotiate maintaining power... because before he was "king of the crossroads" because he's good at deals and engratiating himself to the right people... but that's not necessarily going to keep him in power, since it's easier to get a good deal if people underestimate you, and people usually OVERESTIMATE people in power.

This actually makes Crowley make more sense to me. Crowley is the kind of guy who'd do better as the power behind the throne, than as the actual king. He rose in power as Lilith's right hand man, coming up as the king of the crossroads in what could not have been more than a few centuries. And I figure he was trying to do the same, using Ramiel (or the other princes).

He knew they wouldn't be interested in the day to day running of hell, so set one of them up as the figurehead, spend some time doing whatever they want, knowing that none of them are really all that interested in the apocalypse, and be the real power behind the throne without putting a big target on your back.

Crowley of course couldn't not accept the offer to become king. because anyone else on his own power level, that would accept their offer, would instantly see Crowley himself as a threat. So it was either, be king, or get killed off when the next guy in line thinks you could get in their way. (thinking back on it, this might even help in explaining him trying to get Dean on his side as a knight of hell. really he was setting him up to take over as king, and be the big target, while Crowley would get to stay out of the limelight. )



Edited at 2017-02-17 09:30 am (UTC)
hells_half_acre
Feb. 17th, 2017 08:37 pm (UTC)
Yes, this is what was so brilliant about this episode - it actually makes what WAS inconsistent writing of Crowley seem like consistent writing! Like, they knew all along that the Kingship was never his end game and he doesn't know what to do with it.

And as you say, brilliantly, it explains why Crowley tried to turn Dean into a Knight of Hell - he needed someone with power, who would be nigh undefeatable (like a Winchester) who could officially have the power while Crowley returned to pulling strings in the shadows.
elvit
Feb. 17th, 2017 01:46 pm (UTC)
Sorry for a bit of offtopic

> I don't know how to spell Reservoir. Firstly, because I don't SAY that first R, and secondly because I'm Canadian and when in doubt, I just stick another U into a word.

- I was going to comment "hilarious" - but turned out I had to google the spelling of the word to make sure there was an U there. )))

> They trap Ramiel with holy oil

- And here I wonder why it worked. Only angels are trapped with holy oil, aren't they? And Ramiel was not an angel, and neither was Azazel.
hells_half_acre
Feb. 17th, 2017 08:32 pm (UTC)
Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one that has trouble with spelling. ;)

I'm pretty sure that demons DO react to holy oil? At least for a time? Like... if you stab a demon with an angel blade, they die, don't they? And if you pour holy water on them they burn (or most do) so I'm guessing that holy-stuff affects them, and that would include holy oil.

So, it didn't spark me as weird. :)
elvit
Feb. 18th, 2017 08:40 am (UTC)
Thanks :)

> I'm pretty sure that demons DO react to holy oil?

- I don't know. I happened to rewatch 5.10 Abandon All Hope a couple of days ago and there was that scene with Lucifer and Castiel there. Lucifer trapped Castiel in a circle of holy oil and then Meg appeared. I don't remember exactly. Castiel did something with plumbs (just like Alastair) but at the same time he somehow caught Meg and dropped her on the floor and got out of the circle using her as a bridge. We don't know if she was burnt but she definitely didn't die.
hells_half_acre
Feb. 18th, 2017 08:20 pm (UTC)
Funny, I was thinking of the same scene when I said that they DO react to Holy Oil. So, I think this must come down to interpretation.

Castiel uses Meg as a bridge, but she is screaming the whole time - now, given that demons can get shot and not react with any pain, that's gotta be a SPECIAL pain that Meg is feeling.

Also, what happens in this episode with the ring? Does it go out on it's own or does the demon put it out? I can't remember... in either case, I think the holy oil probably works similarly to holy water - where it burns them. But again, interpretation!
elvit
Feb. 19th, 2017 10:44 am (UTC)
Yeah, I guess, you're right. I went to SupernaturalWiki, they say deamons are affected by holy oil somehow.
Here Ramiel used the lance. It seemed right at that moment - the weapon so powerful can do things with holy fire. And still we don't know if he just didn't want to use his own power of really couldn't. As you say - interpretation.
amberdreams
Feb. 20th, 2017 04:49 pm (UTC)
PS it's runes not ruins on the lance... *wink*
hells_half_acre
Feb. 20th, 2017 05:19 pm (UTC)
Haha, HOMONYMS!!! *shakes fist*

Yeah, I know that objectively, but my fingers tend to type whichever word is more common. :P
amberdreams
Feb. 20th, 2017 05:23 pm (UTC)
My fingers often type words that are nothing to do with the ones in my head. It's weird.
hells_half_acre
Feb. 20th, 2017 05:25 pm (UTC)
I'm a phonetic typer. I once wrote freakwently instead of frequently. I just laughed, because I KNOW how to spell frequently, but my fingers were like "kinda sounds like 'freak wently' let's type that!"
amberdreams
Feb. 20th, 2017 05:26 pm (UTC)
So I can work out your accent by your typos. Because I pronounce ruin - roo-in - not roon. LOL
hells_half_acre
Feb. 20th, 2017 05:31 pm (UTC)
Yup! You can work out what your average Canadian sounds like. When said quickly, ruin and rune are the same - I only make the distinction when speaking very slow.
borgmama1of5
Feb. 17th, 2017 02:06 pm (UTC)
The consistency of the mythology going backwards in this episode was amazing! Everything worked--which frankly isn't usually the case when show tries to retcon to add more stuff--kudos to Davy Perez! (When they make the Supernatural movie, he needs to be involved with the script!!!)

I don't have time to reference your post point by point (I should have left for work 10 minutes ago) but everything you say about the psychology of Crowley and Mary is perfectly observed and reading your comments makes the episode make even more sense--thank you!!!

I only have to add I have never seen a Tarantino movie and the weird title cards and going back over scenes confused me. I am guessing each segment is supposed to show the events from different perspectives? I will have to watch it again and try to understand the storytelling that way.
hells_half_acre
Feb. 17th, 2017 08:27 pm (UTC)
Davy Perez is really impressing me, I gotta say. Kudos to whomever hired him!

And yeah, the consistency of the mythology - not only that, but making it MORE consistent by retconning it... it's amazing. Like, they answered so many questions by explaining this, least of which was why Crowley keeps making dumb moves as King.

One of the commenters above you mentioned how he's really better positioned as the Power Behind the Throne rather than the Throne itself - and that it makes way more sense that he was trying to groom MoC Dean to be King of Hell in his stead than he was grooming him to be his attack dog or brute. Anyway, interesting stuff to think about!

It had been YEARS since I've seen Reservoir Dogs, and I only saw it the once (I'm not a huge fan of Tarantino, as his movies are mainly violent male fantasy wishfulfilment.) But Reservoir Dogs is actually probably the best one of his that I HAVE seen, so that's saying something.

But yes, you called it - the time stamps are to remind us where we are, but show the scenes (or the scenes between the scenes) from a different character's perspective.
liliaeth
Feb. 18th, 2017 11:16 am (UTC)
I think the two newbies are quickly becoming some of my fave writers on the board, especially now that Robbie Thompson is gone.
hells_half_acre
Feb. 18th, 2017 08:20 pm (UTC)
Same! :)
claudiapriscus
Feb. 17th, 2017 10:32 pm (UTC)
Isn't it silly that my primary reaction to all of this is, "hrm. I wish they'd stop making throw-away comments about alcoholism?"

I didn't even realize that had been bugging me for, like, 8 seasons now. It's become like a short hand for how they (well, Dean) are "BROKEN!!" , but they have no intention of engaging with what that really means, and they just like to throw it out there, randomly. I don't think it was ever handled well, but it was handled better at one point. (And I think they had a good opportunity to walk away from it after the whole purgatory thing). But it's almost like a joke at this point, like the asian porn thing was way back when. And that just strikes me both as ... well, distasteful, but also it kind of also works as a symbol of one of their problems with how they handle character development that's just gotten more obvious the longer the show exists. (This applies to trauma in general in the show, I guess. I was ruined forever by Farscape, and now I'm kind of like: don't introduce it for cheap points if you're not going to actually carry it through to the bitter consequences)
hells_half_acre
Feb. 18th, 2017 02:23 am (UTC)
We all get bugged by different things.

The alcoholism doesn't bug me as much as it does you. And I think I took this comment as more of a CLASS insult rather than the truth... like, calling someone a drunk when their aren't, because you associate their class or culture with drinking. That kind of makes it worse in a way, but it also makes it not a reference to any REAL alcoholism - which they really have moved away from since S8. This was the first comment in a long time, I feel like... but then again, if it doesn't bother me much, I might not be noticing others.

But I get what you mean, where it's just a symptom of a larger problem of introducing trauma and then not following through with the real consequences. I think that's the whole reason the Lucifer story bugs me, because that's a HUGE bit of trauma for Sam, and yet they NEVER play to that - it's like Lucifer is just another annoying low-level demon they have to deal with... or a particularly annoying fly... rather than someone who tortured Sam for an unknown period of time to the point where Sam was left with sanity/health issues from it. And yet that's all been completely forgotten.

Blah, anyway, yeah, I agree! (but only in part, since I don't feel like it's been used as a sign for "BROKEN!!" since S7 - and has returned to just a normal level of drinking for the culture in which they were raised, with no further comment on them doing it to an excess.)
liliaeth
Feb. 18th, 2017 11:19 am (UTC)
That's kind of how the hell thing bothers me with Dean, since they never seem to truly explore the damage it did to him. We had several seasons of dealing with Sam's damage, but after s4, the show never truly bothered to show us the damage Dean suffered from his time in hell.
hells_half_acre
Feb. 18th, 2017 08:26 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I was going to mention Dean+Hell in my comment too, but then figured I had complained enough.

But it bugs me that for a good year or two there, we DID see repercussions - like Dean's disgust for torture, etc. And then suddenly it was like "let's torture this guy for info" "oh hey, let's do some torture in this throw-away scene and not bat an eye-lash" If you're going to do that, then at least MARK it as a pretty goddamn dark turn for the character...but nope.

It seems the writers have a one season limit for dwelling on life-changing traumatic events. Dean got from 4x01 until 5x04, Sam got from 6x10 until 7x17 or so, and that's it.
claudiapriscus
Feb. 19th, 2017 09:54 am (UTC)
Urgh, yeah, that Sam thing is also a good example - and a similar one, as well, since they also sort of used it for throw away semi-joke lines over and over again.
amypond45
Feb. 19th, 2017 07:15 pm (UTC)
Mary mentions that she heard about it from her father - and that there are only five things in Creation that it can't kill. It makes me wonder if Sam and Dean haven't told her about how THEY used it... the fact that she mentions only her father when she talks about knowing about it. It wouldn't have been in John's journal, since that's been a static document since the beginning of S1 and Sam and Dean have their own journals (at least, that's my headcanon). But, you'd also think that Dean and Sam would give Mary a BASIC rundown, given that they mention caging lucifer and killing Lilith and all that jazz. So, she MUST know.

This and the fact that Dean mentioned being in Hell in 12x9 and Mary didn't even blink, so I'm pretty sure she knows. Maybe by now she's read the Carver Edlund novels on-line. I can't imagine the Winchesters telling her all that stuff directly, but maybe? There being only five things the Colt can't kill was news to Sam & Dean when they tried to kill Lucifer with it, so Mary must know that, too. I couldn't resist wondering what she plans to do with the Colt (kill Lucifer's baby, maybe?) but it's at least a fifty-fifty possibility that she held onto the Colt after showing it to Ketch, right?

Awesome review, by the way! I'm friending you so I can follow along this season, which I am loving!
hells_half_acre
Feb. 19th, 2017 08:39 pm (UTC)
Yes, agreed. It also occurs to me that Dean sat her down and informed her of some stuff as soon as she arrived. Because I remember her being concerned about how Sam would react to her, since everything that happened to him was all her fault. (or so she felt.)

So, yes, she must know things - and she must have used her time away from the boys to learn more things. She's been working with a few hunters (not just the BMoL) so, she could have also been talking to them about what they know about her boys and by now I'm sure the boys are pretty well known and legendary in the Hunting community (I mean, they already were back in S5 when Roy/Walt suggested that having Dean Winchester coming after you was a very bad thing.)

I'm really hoping that she held on to the gun and it's not in the hands of Ketch, mainly just because I don't want the BMoL to have cool things.

Awesome review, by the way! I'm friending you so I can follow along this season, which I am loving!

Thanks! And welcome! As you can probably tell, right now I'm just posting twice per week here - one rewatch and one quick reaction to the new episode. :)
amypond45
Feb. 20th, 2017 01:49 am (UTC)
Yes, agreed. It also occurs to me that Dean sat her down and informed her of some stuff as soon as she arrived. Because I remember her being concerned about how Sam would react to her, since everything that happened to him was all her fault. (or so she felt.)

I figured it was only her memory of making the deal with Azazel that haunted her at that point. It's hard to imagine Dean spilling his guts to her about all of their suffering right off the bat, given typical Winchester stoicism...

So, yes, she must know things - and she must have used her time away from the boys to learn more things. She's been working with a few hunters (not just the BMoL) so, she could have also been talking to them about what they know about her boys and by now I'm sure the boys are pretty well known and legendary in the Hunting community (I mean, they already were back in S5 when Roy/Walt suggested that having Dean Winchester coming after you was a very bad thing.)

Exactly! I'm thinking she's learned all about them by now (at least through Google, if not from other hunters...!)

Oh man, me too about the Colt. I HOPE she held onto it! I guess we'll find out soon...

So excited about Mark Pelligrino and Crowley having Lucifer where he wants him (of course, Lucifer's probably playing helpless just to get what he wants...!)
hells_half_acre
Feb. 20th, 2017 02:56 am (UTC)
I figured it was only her memory of making the deal with Azazel that haunted her at that point. It's hard to imagine Dean spilling his guts to her about all of their suffering right off the bat, given typical Winchester stoicism...

Hmm... good point. But I figured it probably also came from a conversation where Dean was like "So, you died when I was four - and then we started hunting and eventually killed the demon who killed you...etc," and there was some BASE conversation about it - like "what exactly did I sell when I kissed that demon and how did you get out of it?"

I mean, she directly knew that the demon was after SAM - so she at least knew that Sam had to deal with that.

But who knows.
borgmama1of5
Feb. 20th, 2017 01:35 pm (UTC)
Interestingly, I just rewatched 6.04, Weekend at Bobby's, where we first find out that Crowley is now the King of Hell (the crossroads demon Bobby has in the basement tells him.) We then get this conversation between Bobby and Crowley:

BOBBY: Word on the street is that ever since Lucifer went to the pokey, you’re the big kahuna downstairs.
CROWLEY: I see you've been reading the trades.
BOBBY: Trouble in Paradise?
CROWLEY: Mate. You... have no idea. I thought… when I got the corner office…I thought it was all going to be rainbows and two-headed puppies. But, if I'm being honest, it's been hell.
BOBBY: I thought that was the point.
CROWLEY: You know what the problem with demons is?
BOBBY: They're demons.
CROWLEY: Exactly. Evil lying prats. The whole lot of them. And stupid. Try to show them a – a new way, a better way. And what do you get? Bugger all. You know, there's days that I think Lucifer's whole “Spike with black eyes” plan wasn't half bad. Hmm. Feels good to get it off my chest. We should make this a thing.


Which ties in beautifully with your analysis!

Side note--the boys don't find out about Crowley's promotion for 4 more episodes, when Crowley sends them to hunt for him with the threat of Sam's soul.

(Also, Season 6 is tearing my heart out for Dean--while he had a Sam-sized hole in his life, he did have some fulfillment from Lisa and Ben...and it would have been one thing to have to leave them because Sam came back, but he loses Lisa and doesn't have Sam, he has a wrong-Sam. It's killing me...)
hells_half_acre
Feb. 20th, 2017 05:20 pm (UTC)
Yup! It's some good well researched writing. :)

And yeah, poor poor Dean.
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