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Depressing Timeline Factoid of the Day

I've been timelining today, because I am crazy behind and the season's nearly done... anyway, today I did 10x09 - The Things We Left Behind. (See, I really need to catch up.)

In 10x09, Cas tells Claire that the human souls of vessels don't survive extreme damage, and that Jimmy died when Cas was "ripped apart at the subatomic level by an archangel." In the THEN segment, they showed when that happened in 5x22, BUT, if you remember, it actually FIRST happened in 4x22.

So, Jimmy Novak died on May 14th, 2009. Exactly 11 days after we met him... and we have definitive proof that the last thing Jimmy Novak did with his free will was save Claire's life.

I mean, we already knew that's what he did, but this just drives the point home.

Also, for those wondering, there is no year given for Dean's CBGB story, except for the fact that Dean was "way underage" - I was wondering where to place it, and thinking "way underage" had to be 16 or younger... but then I realized that drinking-age is super old in the states, so I have no idea what qualifies as "way underage" there. In the end, I just placed it in the timeline next to the equally nebulous "Sam runs away to Flagstaff" story.

Anyway, all these facts will get updated to the timeline once the season ends - provided that I have caught up by then.

Comments

( 34 comments — Leave a comment )
supernutjapan
Apr. 26th, 2015 04:54 am (UTC)
I just finished doing My Bloody Valentine for my rewatches and I found out something interesting.

As you remembered, Cas was blown apart by the archangels in Season 4. However, when he was brought back to life, it seems that Jimmy was brought back as well, his soul in tact. This is why I think so. In MBV, Cas says that he is eating those hamburger sandwiches because Jimmy was craving them. Not just Jimmy's body. Jimmy.

DEAN: Okay, but what about you? I mean, since when do angels secretly hunger for White Castle?
CASTIEL: It's my vessel-- Jimmy. His, uh, appetite for red meat has been touched by Famine's effect.



Later, we have confirmation that it is Jimmy's SOUL that is craving these burgers as well as his body by what Famine says.

FAMINE: Doesn't take much--hardly a push. Oh, America--all-you-can-eat, all the time. Consume, consume. A swarm of locusts in stretch pants. And yet, you're all still starving because hunger doesn't just come from the body, it also comes from the soul.

So I do feel terribly sorry for Jimmy, and I'm sure it's one of those stupid writer's misses, but Cas would not have been craving those burgers unless Jimmy was alive so... I'm pretty sure he was alive (again) until 5.22 when he was AGAIN blown to smithereens by Lucifer.
hells_half_acre
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:08 am (UTC)
Hmmmm.... I think that's debatable. The vessel is still Jimmy's body, not Cas's - so it could be a physical hunger for red meat rather than a soul-one.

Also, at this point, Castiel is already falling from heaven - becoming more and more human with each passing day. I know angels technically don't have souls, but they have SOMETHING that makes them uniquely them, otherwise, they wouldn't exist without their grace and Anna could have never been reborn as a human. So, they have something that has the possibility of BECOMING a human soul in the absence of grace.

So, although Cas blames the hunger on Jimmy - my take is that the physical craving is a product of Jimmy's body, but "the hunger that comes from the soul" is Cas's.

Mainly, there's only really one way to explode - what we see in 5x22 certainly matches Chuck's description of what happened in 4x22. And if there's no reason for God to bring Jimmy back in 5x22, there's no reason for him to bring him back in 4x22 either. So I think God gave Jimmy his eternal rest in 4x22.

But hey, opinions may vary, and I do concede that My Bloody Valentine can be used to support the 5x22 interpretation pretty easily.
supernutjapan
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:24 am (UTC)
You mean, you think that Cas was lying about the vessel? That it was actually Cas that was craving food? That is a very very interesting idea.

I disagree that a person can have a craving so deep for something without it being from the soul. I think that was the whole point of the episode. Cas also said that it was Jimmy's appetite. And I don't think bodies have appetites. The body might also crave certain foods because they are needed for nutrition, but not for excessive consumption.

Unfortunately, I don't think the writers were thinking very deeply about Jimmy actually dying with Cas once in Season 4 when they wrote MBV and I also think that the writers decided to let Jimmy go to heaven when they just happened to think of it in Season 10. But they still showed the Season 5 sequence and not the Season 4 sequence, so I think if you want to allow Jimmy to die in Season 4, that is your version(which I would agree with!Poor Jimmy... ) but not the official one that you would base a timeline on.
hells_half_acre
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:38 am (UTC)
I have to go with Castiel's exact words, which were that human souls don't survive extreme damage - and Castiel WAS EXPLODED in both episodes, so there's no reason why the first episode wouldn't have killed him when the second one did. Granted, I'll make a note in the timeline that both interpretations are possible.

I do agree that in S5 the writers were probably thinking that Jimmy was still alive, but unfortunately retcons trump original canon, so now that the S10 writers have decided that human souls can't survive being exploded, then Jimmy dies in 4x22 for me.

Bodies do crave things physically, without our minds (soul) being part of it. Even if it's JUST on the bases of nutrition (which does occur with red meat cravings). Castiel of S5 is slowly turning human, but NOT EATING, so at some point his remaining angel mojo isn't going to be enough to keep him alive... and the body might already be feeling that.

I'm not saying that Cas is lying for that reason. In Cas's view, it WOULD feel like the vessel - Jimmy - is the thing doing the craving.

What I AM saying is that Castiel has a soul-equivalent too... which is where the excessive consumption comes in. It picks up on a body craving and it runs with it on an emotional level that drives Castiel to the excessive hunger that Famine drives all his victims to.

Or at least, that's how I see it. But again, that's me making the retcon work, because I have to, whether or not the S10 writers forgot about 4x22, the fact remains that the damage in both cases was enough to kill Cas and therefore Jimmy.

But yeah, it's not like I won't make a note in the timeline that people have the alternative option of having Jimmy live until 5x22, if they want him to do so.
supernutjapan
Apr. 26th, 2015 08:22 am (UTC)
Wait... if human souls don't survive extreme damage, that means Jimmy's soul didn't go to heaven. The soul has to survive to go to heaven.

OH what a lot of dishwaddle. I hate how the writers just don't think.
hells_half_acre
Apr. 26th, 2015 08:46 am (UTC)
Human souls don't survive WHEN THEIR VESSELS get extreme damage, not the souls themselves - ie: extreme damage to the body "kills" them, just as it would if they were not possessed. It doesn't destroy the soul. Castiel also specifically says that Jimmy is in heaven.

Basically, there are two parts to resurrecting a human after they die - repairing the body and restoring the soul. When Cas exploded, Jimmy's body was repaired, but his soul wasn't returned. Castiel, who is ONLY soul-equivalent, was both repaired (made to be not-dead) and returned to the (now empty) vessel he had been occupying.

So, when someone non-lethally cuts an angel who is possessing someone, they can repair the body before the human soul leaves it (as we see Gadreel do for Sam multiple times), but if someone kills an angel with an angel blade (or by divine exploding wrath), the angel is dead and can't repair the body, so therefore the human soul leaves and goes to heaven.





Edited at 2015-04-26 08:50 am (UTC)
supernutjapan
Apr. 26th, 2015 02:46 pm (UTC)
I think I understand what you are trying to say but the choice of the word survive is incorrect. It contradicts itself.

To survive is to stay alive. The soul is alive if it goes somewhere - to heaven or hell or purgatory. It has survived. It lives happily (maybe) in heaven, or is tortured in hell and becomes a demon. But it is alive (and in the case of hell, even evolving!) so it has survived. The only way the soul could be considered "dead"(the opposite of surviving) is if the soul itself is killed. As in for example, demons killed by the colt (like YED) or killed for good by Sam's power (like Alistair) or some other method, or souls in heaven being killed by some means (Bobby... please be ok :( ). It is also possible that Mary sacrificed her soul for the boys in Home so her soul did not survive - her soul is dead for good - not in heaven, not in hell.

So for Cas to say, the soul did not survive, it went to heaven, is contradictory.

All the writers had to say was that the soul went to heaven when the body exploded. They made it a lot more complicated than it really is. And that is really frustrating.

(In any case, whether the soul survived or not, God could put a body and soul back together if he wanted to. I think even Cas would agree.)

hells_half_acre
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:19 pm (UTC)
Okay, but the use of the word "survive" was an error on my part, because I didn't want to take the time to look up the exact quote - so I used "to survive" as I see it applying to the Supernatural universe "ie: as meaning - to be living ON EARTH" Anyway, that was completely my fault.

The actually quote is: "The human soul, it can only occupy a body while it retains a certain structural integrity, and this vessel, it was … It was ripped apart on a subatomic level by an archangel."

Cas doesn't actually use the word survive - that was me misremembering. He uses the word occupy - which means that it's very very clear what he means. Human souls can't occupy by their vessels when the vessels receive extreme damage, hence they die and go to Heaven.

Yes, God could but a soul back in a body. So too, can angels. The question is why would he do so in 4x22 and not 5x22?

Anyway, sorry for using the wrong word. It was like nearly 2am and I didn't want to take the 30 seconds it would have taken to find the transcript on the SuperWiki :P
supernutjapan
Apr. 26th, 2015 11:03 pm (UTC)
Ach. I should have checked the exact wording too before replying:P

Yes, God could but a soul back in a body. So too, can angels. The question is why would he do so in 4x22 and not 5x22?

I don't have any answer to that. Just that the writers (and therefore God) needed him there for MBV LOL. I've thought about Cas not being able to tell that it wasn't Jimmy but his own grace reacting to Famine, and it just doesn't sit well with me. I think he should be able to tell if he didn't have a human soul inside him - like he obviously did after 5-22(he is sure that Jimmy's soul went to heaven in Season 10).

I also think that the word "appetite" in describing the craving shows that it is soul related and not just the body, and also that they would not have included it unless it did relate to the soul considering the theme of the episode.

I might consider the possibility that Cas was lying, like Dean, in order to hide his own weakness. I really like that idea. The possibility that Cas may have been craving the ability to enjoy food all along would definitely make a good fic :D
hells_half_acre
Apr. 26th, 2015 11:21 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I think it just boils down to a difference of opinion.

To me, in MBV when Cas says that "my vessel - Jimmy..." craves the meat, he is talking about his body, not the another soul inside him. His body is still Jimmy, even if Jimmy is no longer home. Much like Soulless!Sam was still Sam, even though he also wasn't Sam.

EDIT: Also, like I said, in my opinion, Castiel DOES have a soul-equivalent, so the wording of appetites coming from the soul could very well apply to him too. Yes, angels don't possess human souls, but they possess SOMETHING that is not their grace that makes them who they are.

But that's just me, and if you believe MBV only works if Jimmy's soul is still in Cas, then cool.

And yeah, it would be an interesting fic for Cas to be lying - I mean, he IS slowly turning human at that point, there's a strong case to be built for him being in some pretty big denial about that... or maybe just not wanting to admit it. It's just one episode later that we see him fall asleep for the first time too.

Edited at 2015-04-26 11:23 pm (UTC)
ramblin_rosie
Apr. 26th, 2015 04:59 am (UTC)
Poor Jimmy.

In the US, the legal age to purchase alcohol is 21. I have no idea whether someone who's 18 would be allowed in the door at a club like CBGB (given that I've never been clubbing). But I'd guess 16 might be a reasonable age for Dean to be that uncharacteristically *pouty* under the influence--especially if the case in NYC came right on the heels of John dragging Dean away from Sonny's. JMO, of course.
strgazr04
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:10 am (UTC)
I was just going to say the same thing about the underage part. I live in NY and no, you can't get into a club without being of age. You have to show your driver's license at the door. Plus since the clubs have liquor, anyone underage can't be on premises or else the club can get in trouble for the assumption that they sold to a minor. It might be more easier to get away with in other parts of the country where it's more rural but not in a huge metropolitan area like NYC.
hells_half_acre
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:13 am (UTC)
I just commented at the same time as you! But yeah, I think the story has the words "snuck into" in it for a reason. I don't think Dean went through the front door at all.
strgazr04
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:15 am (UTC)
Right, which means he had to be so underage that even a fake ID (which I'm sure he had) wouldn't even cut it.
hells_half_acre
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:25 am (UTC)
Yeah... we also get varying depictions of what Dean looked like as a teenager. The young!Dean of Bad Boys at 16 was babyfaced, while the Dean of After School Special at around 17 looked old enough to get into a club. I've seen one meta that was really neat that explained the difference by saying that Bad Boys is told from Dean's POV and After School Special is told from Sam's... so the Dean we see in each is the difference between how Dean saw himself (possibly reality) and how Sam saw him.

If we just use Jensen as a model of how Dean would have looked as a teenager though - there's no WAY that he'd be passing for older. At least, not if I were the bouncer. :P
strgazr04
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:28 am (UTC)
Ooh I really like that explanation! It makes complete sense.

Yea I always tended to look more at a younger Jensen than the actors they used. I feel like they tend to pick the best actor for the role and not just the one who looks the most like JA. You also have to remember that Bad Boys originally had Dean at 14 but they changed it for some reason. Then in the deaged episode, they put him back at 14 though they used the same Bad Boys actor. :/

Edited at 2015-04-26 05:29 am (UTC)
hells_half_acre
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:42 am (UTC)
Yeah, I personally really think they should have stuck with 14 for Bad Boys... but I have to work with what they give me. :P
strgazr04
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:49 am (UTC)
I agree too because the age of the actor they had playing Sam didn't work if they kept Dean 16. I always wondered if they changed it in ADR.
hells_half_acre
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:53 am (UTC)
They may have.

The meta I saw about the POV explained the Sam actor too - because if Bad Boys was Dean's POV, then of course Sam would appear to be just a little kid - someone who needed protecting.
strgazr04
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:59 am (UTC)
That's why I love the idea so much. Sometimes I wish they'd write more stories where the brothers reflect on their view of the other. Kinda like in Scarecrow when Dean is telling the couple how his little brother and his puppy eyes would have gotten them to do whatever he wanted in a matter of seconds. I think it also explains Dean's strong reluctance to let Sam be more of an equal the way Sam wants. In my mind, Dean still sees Sam as that little kid, as HIS kid. There's definitely a crossover with parental - or maybe even maternal, since he stepped in to do what Mary couldn't - views, especially from Dean's vantage point. It just makes me think of all those talk shows in the 90s with mothers who don't know what to do with themselves once their kids don't need them anymore because it's how they defined their entire identity. Yes I know Dean isn't a woman, but I can't help thinking that he stepped in at age 4. At that time, he was home all day with Mary and she was the role model for him to know how to take care of a baby. So he stepped in doing what his mother used to do and it just carried on for years. This reminds me of a cute fic where wee!Sam has to make a card in class for mother's day and they discuss just what their mothers do for them. Sam realizes it's all the things Dean does. So from then on, he always gives Dean "Brother's Day" cards by crossing out the M on Mother's day cards hehe.
hells_half_acre
Apr. 26th, 2015 06:11 am (UTC)
I read that fic too! Hahaha!

And yeah, I agree, I think a lot of Dean's codependence issues stem from taking the role of Sam's parental figure. He's basically said it himself - he's been responsible for Sam since he was 4 years old, which means that really, Dean can barely remember a time when he wasn't Sam's parent. Which is much different than mother's who usually have AT LEAST 16-18, but usually more like 20-30 years of knowing what it feels like to be a person who is NOT responsible for someone else.

And even without that baggage, I think the meta totally works because I often forget just how much of an adult my little sister is until I see her, or she does something particularly adult-like. And I'm like "oh yeah!"

But back when I was a teenager, like Dean was in Bad Boys, I remember the realizations being even more jarring.. like when we spent time apart, I'd start picturing her as a 12 year old instead of a 15 year-old, and then I'd see her again when we were reunited and it'd be trippy until I realized that I had just had the wrong image stuck in my head for the days we had been apart.

Anyway, yeah, I kind of wish they'd do an episode where they explored it too. It'd be really awesome if they did an episode like Tall Tales, but with flashbacks to childhood, and they got different aged actors to play the parts depending who was telling the story... so that Sam was always too young in Dean's version, and Dean was always too old in Sam's.

And it's funny you should mention Scarecrow and the "puppy eyes" thing, because I just watched Hibbing 911 too and Dean TOTALLY GIVES SAM THE PUPPY EYES in order to get Sam to agree to go help Jody even though she told them not to bother. It's super adorable... so, hey, Sam totally learned that from his big brother. ;)
strgazr04
Apr. 26th, 2015 06:20 am (UTC)
I wish they did more of that too. You know they could have really worked that into the episode in Heaven. As they bounced back and forth between each brother's version of their best moments, it would be from their POV and the other brother would see just how different they appeared to the other.

On a side note, I always wondered if Dean ever tripped up a time or two when people asked about Sam and he'd introduce him as his "kid brother" but then hesitantly almost forget to add the brother part at the end. "S'my kid, S-..kid BROTHER, Sammy". This would especially stand true from what you said about how Dean has never NOT been a parent. Man I wish they'd have Dean explain this to Sam. I think I might ask Jensen about it at NJcon. Like, does either brother even realize this is a part of their relationship or are they so immersed in it that this is just their codependency and how it's always been. Sometimes I think Sam doesn't really realize this issue (as most kids don't, and just want to be treated more grown up though they'll always be their mom's baby). I say this because Sam keeps wanting to be an equal and keeps telling Dean he's hanging on too tight and making too many decisions for him, etc. I don't think he grasps the fact that Dean doesn't know any better. There was a scene in one of the Garth episodes at the end sitting on the car and Sam says how it's about time Dean gets a chance to take care of himself for a change. Sam gets in the car and Dean just stands there looking lost.

I read a great outsider POV fic that I think happened with that women where Dean was telling her in the bar how he'd make Sam all these variations of mac and cheese. Well in the fic, she ends up meeting Sam and can't believe this is the guy Dean was talking about because she was picturing someone totally different from Dean's description.

Oh yes he totally learned those eyes from Dean. I can just imagine how they used to use that as kids. Dean making Sam "do the eyes" so they'd get free dessert - aka pie - at restaurants and such.
hells_half_acre
Apr. 26th, 2015 06:38 am (UTC)
Yeah, Sam's codependency is of a slightly different variety, because to him, Dean is just the one constant in his life, but Dean is, at least, an EQUAL constant. I don't think Sam necessarily sees Dean as a parental figure. Sam's always had a slightly healthier view of the relationship that way (and I say SLIGHTLY because Sam IS as codependent as Dean, it's just that Sam actively works to correct that whenever he's not wholly consumed by it.)

I'm not sure Dean would slip up like that. I mean, I'm not him, and the situation IS more extreme - but I did have a hand in raising my younger sister and I DO kinda see her as partially my kid, even though I'm only 6 years older than her (I was once mistaken for her mother when I was only 14 or so... it was an old lady, so poor eyesight?, and I was very large for my age.) But she's firmly my little sister in my head, even if the relationship is slightly different than most other sister pairs. With Sam being only four years younger, I think Dean would have it pretty firmly that this was his brother, not his kid, but I think Dean may not have realized that his brother-relationship was different than other people's brother relationships.

Like, I once spent a weekend with a family where all the kids were the same age as me and my siblings, but they had more present and "traditional" (for lack of a better word) parents than we did... and the result was just BIZARRE to me... like, they weren't responsible for each other at ALL, they didn't seem to look out for each other AT ALL, they weren't enemies, but there always wasn't the "we're in this together" feeling between them that I have with my siblings. I mean, that was just one case, and maybe THEY were the weird family and my family was normal - but until that moment I never really thought about how my sibling-relationships might be different because of our sort of latch-key upbringing where we depended on each other for a lot of things and had to play wider roles in the family than perhaps other kids did.

Again - I read that fic too!! It was great! Haha

Hopefully one day they'll do an episode like that. It might have to wait until the close of the series, where they will hopefully actually make the brother relationship healthy and have a mutual understanding of each other... before they die tragically, because this is Supernatural. :P
strgazr04
Apr. 27th, 2015 05:51 am (UTC)
I love your replies. I just end up nodding in agreement the entire time I'm reading them.

Yea Sam is a tiny bit more level headed at least when it's not taking him over like it is this season. I would think that he looked at Dean as more of a parental figure when he was younger and John was always gone. I asked Jared about this at a con. He said he thinks that's probably where a lot of Sam's issues and him wanting out of the life originated besides just not liking to hunt. You had John as the head of the family and Dean as the second in command or sometimes the one in charge when John was gone. Meanwhile Sam never had any opportunity to move up the ladder. He was always the baby. So now he's older and is striving for more equality.

Maybe Dean wouldn't slip up like that now but couldn't you picture him as a very young child yelling at people when they tried to pick up Sam? "No mine! Sammy mine! You no have!" lol oh how little has changed! XP

Yea it probably won't happen until the end of the series. Look how long it's taking them to remember the "we're better together" line! They learn it every year for a decade and still! And to think that Sam used to be the one telling Dean and John this back in s1. Maybe one day the poor things will get it!
hells_half_acre
Apr. 27th, 2015 06:27 am (UTC)
Yeah, I definitely think Jared's right on that one (and really, why wouldn't he be! He's THE authority on Sam) - it makes a lot of sense for why Sam always been eager to see Dean as an equal, rather than have him remain a parental figure.

I can definitely see Dean behaving like that as a very young child, and just not knowing at all that brothers aren't supposed to have the kind of relationship that he and Sam have. You know how it is when you're a kid - you always assume you're normal, until you get to a certain age and start realizing that other people live differently. (Not that you don't notice before, but your little kid brain thinks THEY'RE the weird ones, not you.)

One day, indeed, the brothers will have a healthy relationship - and that is how we will know that the series is over. Sam and Dean's relationship is the will-they/won't-they of SPN.
hells_half_acre
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:12 am (UTC)
Yeah, in Canada legal drinking age is 18 or 19, depending what province you are in... so "way underage" would be 16 or younger, and just "underage" would be 17 or 18.

Dean definitely wasn't let in the door of CBGB's, because he distinctly says that he "snuck in" - which to me means that no fake IDs or passing as older was needed. So, really, it could be any time.

But yeah, my thoughts are that it's the kind of story a 16 year-old has, when you're too young to have built up much alcohol tolerance or any sort of self-preservation instinct.

I definitely don't think it was before Sonny's, that's for sure!
grasshopr_molly
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:17 am (UTC)
In the US, drinking age is set by the state but you get dinged if it's lower than 21, so in I think all states it currently is 21. It's been 21 in New York since '85. But I still wouldn't call 18 "way underage". I think the CBGB story fits in best not long after Sonny's, because it gives Dean an extra reason to be pouty at John.
hells_half_acre
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:26 am (UTC)
Agreed. :)
borgmama1of5
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:18 am (UTC)
Fascinating catch. Wonder if anyone with the show ever bothered to figure out just how short Jimmy's lifespan was.

Aw, Jimmy, we hardly knew ya...
hells_half_acre
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:28 am (UTC)
Yup, but Cas DID confirm that Jimmy is in Heaven, so who knows... we might get to see him again sometime.
cappy712
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:28 am (UTC)
I just love your timelines - how you see the history of the boys (and those around them)....

Thank you for continuing... have fun with the rest of the season.
hells_half_acre
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:43 am (UTC)
Thanks! I'm glad you like them. :)
metallidean_grl
Apr. 27th, 2015 01:55 am (UTC)
Interesting thought about Jimmy's demise. I do agree with you that given what Castiel said about the Jimmy dying because the vessel exploded would mean Jimmy left in S4, not S5. As for the discussion on the body vs the soul craving foods - I believe it is the body craving the food. A body gets so used to particular foods, when you don't have those foods, your body starts to crave it. I feel those cravings for red meat at times, and those cravings have nothing to do with my soul, they have to do with my body wanting/needing something to continue to survive, and with Castiel becoming more and more human in S4, or less angelic, and the vessel not as much as angel possession, but more human, I can totally see that it would be the vessel craving the meat, not the soul of Jimmy.

As for Dean in CBGB, I always figured it would probably be somewhere between 14 and 16 years of age.
hells_half_acre
Apr. 27th, 2015 02:10 am (UTC)
That's what I picture for Dean too - something really far too young to be in an establishment like that, but old enough for Dean to think he can somehow get away with it.


And yes! Those are my thoughts on MBV cravings too. I mean, famine does state that the excessive gorging on our cravings comes from the soul... which is where the other argument comes in, because Cas does start eating excessively just like all of Famine's victims... but Cas is also becoming more and more human, and "soul" can be a pretty board term. Cas has SOMETHING that makes him Cas that is not tied to the body that he is in - so whatever that is must have the same weaknesses as a human soul when it comes to being influenced by Famine.
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