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Depressing Timeline Factoid of the Day

I've been timelining today, because I am crazy behind and the season's nearly done... anyway, today I did 10x09 - The Things We Left Behind. (See, I really need to catch up.)

In 10x09, Cas tells Claire that the human souls of vessels don't survive extreme damage, and that Jimmy died when Cas was "ripped apart at the subatomic level by an archangel." In the THEN segment, they showed when that happened in 5x22, BUT, if you remember, it actually FIRST happened in 4x22.

So, Jimmy Novak died on May 14th, 2009. Exactly 11 days after we met him... and we have definitive proof that the last thing Jimmy Novak did with his free will was save Claire's life.

I mean, we already knew that's what he did, but this just drives the point home.

Also, for those wondering, there is no year given for Dean's CBGB story, except for the fact that Dean was "way underage" - I was wondering where to place it, and thinking "way underage" had to be 16 or younger... but then I realized that drinking-age is super old in the states, so I have no idea what qualifies as "way underage" there. In the end, I just placed it in the timeline next to the equally nebulous "Sam runs away to Flagstaff" story.

Anyway, all these facts will get updated to the timeline once the season ends - provided that I have caught up by then.

Comments

( 34 comments — Leave a comment )
supernutjapan
Apr. 26th, 2015 04:54 am (UTC)
I just finished doing My Bloody Valentine for my rewatches and I found out something interesting.

As you remembered, Cas was blown apart by the archangels in Season 4. However, when he was brought back to life, it seems that Jimmy was brought back as well, his soul in tact. This is why I think so. In MBV, Cas says that he is eating those hamburger sandwiches because Jimmy was craving them. Not just Jimmy's body. Jimmy.

DEAN: Okay, but what about you? I mean, since when do angels secretly hunger for White Castle?
CASTIEL: It's my vessel-- Jimmy. His, uh, appetite for red meat has been touched by Famine's effect.



Later, we have confirmation that it is Jimmy's SOUL that is craving these burgers as well as his body by what Famine says.

FAMINE: Doesn't take much--hardly a push. Oh, America--all-you-can-eat, all the time. Consume, consume. A swarm of locusts in stretch pants. And yet, you're all still starving because hunger doesn't just come from the body, it also comes from the soul.

So I do feel terribly sorry for Jimmy, and I'm sure it's one of those stupid writer's misses, but Cas would not have been craving those burgers unless Jimmy was alive so... I'm pretty sure he was alive (again) until 5.22 when he was AGAIN blown to smithereens by Lucifer.
hells_half_acre
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:08 am (UTC)
Hmmmm.... I think that's debatable. The vessel is still Jimmy's body, not Cas's - so it could be a physical hunger for red meat rather than a soul-one.

Also, at this point, Castiel is already falling from heaven - becoming more and more human with each passing day. I know angels technically don't have souls, but they have SOMETHING that makes them uniquely them, otherwise, they wouldn't exist without their grace and Anna could have never been reborn as a human. So, they have something that has the possibility of BECOMING a human soul in the absence of grace.

So, although Cas blames the hunger on Jimmy - my take is that the physical craving is a product of Jimmy's body, but "the hunger that comes from the soul" is Cas's.

Mainly, there's only really one way to explode - what we see in 5x22 certainly matches Chuck's description of what happened in 4x22. And if there's no reason for God to bring Jimmy back in 5x22, there's no reason for him to bring him back in 4x22 either. So I think God gave Jimmy his eternal rest in 4x22.

But hey, opinions may vary, and I do concede that My Bloody Valentine can be used to support the 5x22 interpretation pretty easily.
supernutjapan
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:24 am (UTC)
You mean, you think that Cas was lying about the vessel? That it was actually Cas that was craving food? That is a very very interesting idea.

I disagree that a person can have a craving so deep for something without it being from the soul. I think that was the whole point of the episode. Cas also said that it was Jimmy's appetite. And I don't think bodies have appetites. The body might also crave certain foods because they are needed for nutrition, but not for excessive consumption.

Unfortunately, I don't think the writers were thinking very deeply about Jimmy actually dying with Cas once in Season 4 when they wrote MBV and I also think that the writers decided to let Jimmy go to heaven when they just happened to think of it in Season 10. But they still showed the Season 5 sequence and not the Season 4 sequence, so I think if you want to allow Jimmy to die in Season 4, that is your version(which I would agree with!Poor Jimmy... ) but not the official one that you would base a timeline on.
(no subject) - hells_half_acre - Apr. 26th, 2015 05:38 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - supernutjapan - Apr. 26th, 2015 08:22 am (UTC) - Expand
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supernutjapan
Apr. 26th, 2015 11:03 pm (UTC)
Ach. I should have checked the exact wording too before replying:P

Yes, God could but a soul back in a body. So too, can angels. The question is why would he do so in 4x22 and not 5x22?

I don't have any answer to that. Just that the writers (and therefore God) needed him there for MBV LOL. I've thought about Cas not being able to tell that it wasn't Jimmy but his own grace reacting to Famine, and it just doesn't sit well with me. I think he should be able to tell if he didn't have a human soul inside him - like he obviously did after 5-22(he is sure that Jimmy's soul went to heaven in Season 10).

I also think that the word "appetite" in describing the craving shows that it is soul related and not just the body, and also that they would not have included it unless it did relate to the soul considering the theme of the episode.

I might consider the possibility that Cas was lying, like Dean, in order to hide his own weakness. I really like that idea. The possibility that Cas may have been craving the ability to enjoy food all along would definitely make a good fic :D
(no subject) - hells_half_acre - Apr. 26th, 2015 11:21 pm (UTC) - Expand
ramblin_rosie
Apr. 26th, 2015 04:59 am (UTC)
Poor Jimmy.

In the US, the legal age to purchase alcohol is 21. I have no idea whether someone who's 18 would be allowed in the door at a club like CBGB (given that I've never been clubbing). But I'd guess 16 might be a reasonable age for Dean to be that uncharacteristically *pouty* under the influence--especially if the case in NYC came right on the heels of John dragging Dean away from Sonny's. JMO, of course.
strgazr04
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:10 am (UTC)
I was just going to say the same thing about the underage part. I live in NY and no, you can't get into a club without being of age. You have to show your driver's license at the door. Plus since the clubs have liquor, anyone underage can't be on premises or else the club can get in trouble for the assumption that they sold to a minor. It might be more easier to get away with in other parts of the country where it's more rural but not in a huge metropolitan area like NYC.
hells_half_acre
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:13 am (UTC)
I just commented at the same time as you! But yeah, I think the story has the words "snuck into" in it for a reason. I don't think Dean went through the front door at all.
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hells_half_acre
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:12 am (UTC)
Yeah, in Canada legal drinking age is 18 or 19, depending what province you are in... so "way underage" would be 16 or younger, and just "underage" would be 17 or 18.

Dean definitely wasn't let in the door of CBGB's, because he distinctly says that he "snuck in" - which to me means that no fake IDs or passing as older was needed. So, really, it could be any time.

But yeah, my thoughts are that it's the kind of story a 16 year-old has, when you're too young to have built up much alcohol tolerance or any sort of self-preservation instinct.

I definitely don't think it was before Sonny's, that's for sure!
grasshopr_molly
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:17 am (UTC)
In the US, drinking age is set by the state but you get dinged if it's lower than 21, so in I think all states it currently is 21. It's been 21 in New York since '85. But I still wouldn't call 18 "way underage". I think the CBGB story fits in best not long after Sonny's, because it gives Dean an extra reason to be pouty at John.
(no subject) - hells_half_acre - Apr. 26th, 2015 05:26 am (UTC) - Expand
borgmama1of5
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:18 am (UTC)
Fascinating catch. Wonder if anyone with the show ever bothered to figure out just how short Jimmy's lifespan was.

Aw, Jimmy, we hardly knew ya...
hells_half_acre
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:28 am (UTC)
Yup, but Cas DID confirm that Jimmy is in Heaven, so who knows... we might get to see him again sometime.
cappy712
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:28 am (UTC)
I just love your timelines - how you see the history of the boys (and those around them)....

Thank you for continuing... have fun with the rest of the season.
hells_half_acre
Apr. 26th, 2015 05:43 am (UTC)
Thanks! I'm glad you like them. :)
metallidean_grl
Apr. 27th, 2015 01:55 am (UTC)
Interesting thought about Jimmy's demise. I do agree with you that given what Castiel said about the Jimmy dying because the vessel exploded would mean Jimmy left in S4, not S5. As for the discussion on the body vs the soul craving foods - I believe it is the body craving the food. A body gets so used to particular foods, when you don't have those foods, your body starts to crave it. I feel those cravings for red meat at times, and those cravings have nothing to do with my soul, they have to do with my body wanting/needing something to continue to survive, and with Castiel becoming more and more human in S4, or less angelic, and the vessel not as much as angel possession, but more human, I can totally see that it would be the vessel craving the meat, not the soul of Jimmy.

As for Dean in CBGB, I always figured it would probably be somewhere between 14 and 16 years of age.
hells_half_acre
Apr. 27th, 2015 02:10 am (UTC)
That's what I picture for Dean too - something really far too young to be in an establishment like that, but old enough for Dean to think he can somehow get away with it.


And yes! Those are my thoughts on MBV cravings too. I mean, famine does state that the excessive gorging on our cravings comes from the soul... which is where the other argument comes in, because Cas does start eating excessively just like all of Famine's victims... but Cas is also becoming more and more human, and "soul" can be a pretty board term. Cas has SOMETHING that makes him Cas that is not tied to the body that he is in - so whatever that is must have the same weaknesses as a human soul when it comes to being influenced by Famine.
( 34 comments — Leave a comment )