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Pairings I just don't get...

So, you all know that I'm not  fan of Supernatural slash. I just don't see it. I mean, for one, you have BROTHERS, for two you have AN ANGEL....and well, yeah, it's just all amazingly unbelievable to me, and it's extremely rare that I can tolerate it. There's also the fact that I've just lost my taste for slash over the years, which might factor into my non-enjoyment of the genre.

That being said, I get a really big amused chuckle out of "Sassy" fans. (The Sam/Cas pairing, for those who don't know). Mainly, just because I absolutely love the portmanteau. Those Sassy fans are so sassy!

Now, the pairings that I think are unbelievable, I can at least see SOME canon bases for them. I mean, the show itself plays up the Wincest angle with the constant gay jokes...or even the more serious moments such as Lisa calling Dean out on the unhealthy co-dependence with his brother...and of course, we get the Dean/Cas thing played up in the show a lot lately...what with Dean and Cas officially having a "more profound bond" or the comment from Dean last year about the way Cas was looking at him...and we got that great belt-biting scene last week between Sam and Cas, so I just know those Sassy fans are going to be running with that for a long time to come.

The one pairing that I just don't get AT ALL (and I see crop up enough that I can rule it somewhat-popular) is Sam/Gabriel (or Gabriel/Sam...whatever floats your boat).

What the hell is the canon bases for that? When Gabriel isn't outright putting Sam through the worst psychological torture possible, he's completely ignoring him in favour of talking with Dean. I mean, yes, Gabriel was putting Sam through psychological torture to try to HELP, but it's still psychological torture (which would definitely not endear Gabriel to Sam) and it didn't really help (which would not endear Sam to Gabriel.)

And you could argue that people write Alistair/Dean stuff too (which I find absolutely disgusting, but you know, whatever floats your boat...) and it's the more non-con, sadistic, thing...which, you know, given the previous Gabriel->Sam psychological torture, COULD be sort of similar...except that whenever I do see the pairing, judging by the summary, it's some schmoopy curtain-fic.

That is a whole lot of words to say: I just don't get it.

I think Sam/Stunt-Demon#2 would be a more believable pairing.

(I should disclose that for the most part I've read every pairing I've come across at least once, if only out of curiosity...because, you know, who hasn't done just about everything once out of curiosity?)

PS: My job is boring.

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hells_half_acre
Nov. 8th, 2010 11:01 pm (UTC)
It must have popped out of the metaphorical basement, because otherwise I have no clue :P

The gay jokes ARE a running gag, and a good one...but the fact that Sam and Dean have an unhealthy co-dependent relationship is canon. That being said, an unhealthy co-dependent relationship =/= sex. It squicks me too. That being said, there have been few occasions where an author will treat Wincest in such a way that I can actually see it...but it's extraordinarily rare (and it's usually in such a way where they completely remove the element of lust and desire and have it more be about the psychological twistedness of it all).
liliaeth
Nov. 8th, 2010 10:40 pm (UTC)
Just wanted to say how much I agree with you on Sam/Gabriel. I actually like Gabriel, but I could see him much more easily paired with Dean than with Sam.

I fear to say this, but I think Sam/Gabriel owes more of its popularity to the fact that people want to ship Sam with 'someone, anyone as long as it's a guy' than to any canon basis for the pairing.

But then I only tend to like the really dark wincest that shows how screwed up such a relationship would be, instead of anything romantic And I think Dean/Cas is about the only pairing where I almost prefer human au fics. (which is very rare for me, since I usually can't stand human au)

I don't know, I don't dislike Dean/Cas, and I do like good dark Alistair/Dean (cause anything fluffy in that pairing would be creepier than the darkest darkfic in any other pairing), but where SPN's concerned, I just prefer good old gen...
hells_half_acre
Nov. 8th, 2010 11:06 pm (UTC)
Yeah, except for the Alistair/Dean stuff (which I can't stomach in any form), I pretty much agree with you. The only time I've found Wincest believable was when it was written from the psychologically twisted point of view (rather than schmoopy schmoop lovey dovey stuff).

I think, and I fear to say this as well, that maybe some people have a size-kink when it comes to Sam...and the appeal might be that Gabriel is so much smaller than him? That's my running theory anyway...

Man, I think I'll stick with Gen. It makes so much more sense.
liliaeth
Nov. 8th, 2010 11:24 pm (UTC)
Yeah what can I say, I love dark non-con stuff on occasion*eg*, it's a thing.

My main issue with Wincest is that it takes a deep multi-layered relationship and tends to turn it into a simple romance plot. Most often, the writers don't even bother to go with just how taboo such a relationship would be. With the other supporting characters acting as if there's nothing abnormal about two brothers being in a 'romantic' relationship.

hells_half_acre
Nov. 9th, 2010 06:15 am (UTC)
My main issue with Wincest is that it takes a deep multi-layered relationship and tends to turn it into a simple romance plot.

This is really my complaint with almost every pairing in every fandom...but yeah, it's especially true of Wincest.
baruchan
Nov. 8th, 2010 11:00 pm (UTC)
The weirdest thing about some Sam/Gabe fans is that they interpret the whole psychological torture thing as Gabriel's way of pulling Sam's metaphorical pigtails. IDEK. *facepalm*

A plausible reason for this pairing's popularity is the ~BROTHERLY SYMMETRY~. Because a lot of the Sam/Gabe fans are Dean/Cas fans, and if Dean is sexing up an angel, Sam should too! Or something like that.

I personally like the Stockholm Syndrome explanation. (Love me, Sammy, OR ELSE! *evil laughter*) That's what I always tell myself whenever the author of a fic I'm reading suddenly throws in some Sam/Gabriel stuff.

I tried looking for Sam/Gabriel over at ship_manifesto, just to know what the shippers have to say for themselves, but there isn't an entry yet. Which is really weird, for such a huge fanbase. (Amusingly enough, though, there's a Dean/Alistair and a Dean/Victor manifesto. WHAT.) (Also: I think the SPN writers got the "erotically co-dependent" thing Zachariah threw at Adam from the Wincest manifesto. HAHA.)
hells_half_acre
Nov. 8th, 2010 11:14 pm (UTC)
Also: I think the SPN writers got the "erotically co-dependent" thing Zachariah threw at Adam from the Wincest manifesto. HAHA.

I wouldn't put it past them :P

The weirdest thing about some Sam/Gabe fans is that they interpret the whole psychological torture thing as Gabriel's way of pulling Sam's metaphorical pigtails. IDEK. *facepalm*

Yeah, because I totally remember, in elementary school, how I used to psychologically brutalize all the pretty boys for more than half the year to show them how much I liked them.../sarcasm

I fear for people's RL relationships when they can misinterpret fiction in such amazing ways. I just have visions of them getting into abusive relationships and thinking their partner is just "pulling pigtails"...an overreaction, I know, but it's still my reaction.

The brotherly symmetry argument, I get more. After all, it's not like there are many angels to choose from. Gabriel was the only other angel that was on Team Free Will for a brief period. But just because the enemy of your enemy can be an ally, does not mean that the enemy of your enemy can be your sex partner. :P
baruchan
Nov. 9th, 2010 05:00 am (UTC)
I fear for people's RL relationships when they can misinterpret fiction in such amazing ways. I just have visions of them getting into abusive relationships and thinking their partner is just "pulling pigtails"...an overreaction, I know, but it's still my reaction.

And here is the major problem I have with die-hard Twilight fans and Stephenie Meyer. In the first book (which is the only book I read in the series; the rest I know the plot of by reading cleolinda's recaps), Bella and Edward have a discussion that basically says that Wuthering Heights is the MOST ROMANTIC BOOK EVAR. Which is just...no. No. Both books' romantic leads emotionally abuse each other! They weren't made better persons from knowing one another! Where's the romance in that?

Ahem. Sorry for the Twilight rant. But anyway, that also covers my problems with Sam/Gabriel. Because like it or not, even if Sam does forgive Gabriel (and if Gabriel doesn't die in the end), I don't think they'd end up being anything other than friends, and not even close ones at that. I don't think you could really develop a believable romantic relationship with someone who caused you to experience your brother's death over and over and over for months.

I guess my squickiness over the pairing comes from the fact that I like my romantic pairings to spring from friendships. Which is why I infinitely prefer Dean/Cas (though S6!Dean is such a dick to Cas lately that I'm more likely to bash his head in and wonder at how much he sucks as a friend) or Sassy over Sam/Gabriel.

But just because the enemy of your enemy can be an ally, does not mean that the enemy of your enemy can be your sex partner. :P

Yes, yes, yes! I'd like to draw little hearts around this comment, this is so true. :D
hells_half_acre
Nov. 9th, 2010 07:08 am (UTC)
Never apologize for a Twilight rant! I feel the same way about it - as well as have the same fears for the die hard fans.

I also like my romantic pairings to stem from friendships - which is why I'd also believe Sassy over S/G any day.

S6 Dean is a dick to everyone it seems...I think it's just because he's feeling so overwhelmed by everything. Dean tends to be an ass when he is stressed. :-P

liliaeth
Nov. 8th, 2010 11:17 pm (UTC)
There's a Victor/Dean manifesto? really? Honestly?

Victor/Dean is my really rare pairing love, but it's just so nigh impossible to find.
baruchan
Nov. 8th, 2010 11:23 pm (UTC)
Yes, there is!

There are a few links to fanfic at the bottom (as per usual custom in the comm), but I don't know if you've read them already.
marlowe78
Nov. 8th, 2010 11:18 pm (UTC)
Heehee!

This is fun. You know, I like to veer into wincest-territory once in a while, but I admit: only, and ONLY for the pretty mental picture!

While I see some slashy scenes between Castiel and Dean, I can see absolutely nothing whatsoever that'd hint at a sexual interest between Sam and Dean, and that isn't only based on both of them being into girls. I just don't see anything that is not completely brotherly, even if it is a bit more dependent than usual.

Everyone who thinks there is a 'spark' between them has no brothers, is what I think.

So, as I admitted, I read for the pretty guys, because a combination of these two... whew. Mind-melting (which is why there can't be a woman involved - she'd just combust when they undress)

But where I COULD see some slash happening, just from the spark, the chemistry is Dean/Cas. Only... I can't picture it. It's just so not working in my head, which is why I can't read it without being ... well, weirded out.
You know, more than being weirded out by an angel using his vessel to have sex with a guy, without asking the vessel if that's ok. Yeah.

Bottom-line, and therefore back to your initial question:
The Sam/Gabriel-shippers are probably like me - they read for the pretty :-D

Why anyone would exchange the mental image of Dean with Gabriel/Loki/Trickster is beyond me, but taste is rather subjective, I've been told.


hells_half_acre
Nov. 8th, 2010 11:27 pm (UTC)
I like to veer into wincest-territory once in a while, but I admit: only, and ONLY for the pretty mental picture!

I ADMIRE YOUR HONESTY!

Because I too see nothing other than brotherly-connection between the two brothers...I think, at most, you can accuse them of being EMOTIONALLY incestuous (meaning, they treat each other like their primary life-partner) but that has nothing to do with lust/desire/sex.

(Likewise, I see nothing but brotherly-connection, hetero-thing, between the actors...which is one of the many reasons why RPS non-AU really squicks me...the other reason it squicks me is the whole, you know RP thing.)

Yeah, ok, if Sam/Gabster stuff is for the pretty pictures, than sure! Whatever floats your boat. Just as long as no one tries to convince me it's for any sort of emotional connection they're supposed to have...and you know, you ignore the whole psychological torture thing like it never happened... :P
marlowe78
Nov. 9th, 2010 12:13 am (UTC)
Ohhh, the RP-thing...

It took me pretty long to get why anyone would read that. But then I discovered that there is a genre called AU-RPS... and yeah, well. Putting them in different characters, just like you'd do with an actor and let them play there - sure. No problem.

There is some pretty good stuff of those out there, and I even wrote a bit myself because I got bored with "he gets his guy through many challenges", and I CRAVED some good (emphasis on GOOD) gen RPS-AU. Because actually, a wonderful solid friendship can be so much more awesome to write about than 'love' - which sadly is very often a fleeting thing.

But the "real"-RPS?

Just creeps me out and makes me feel dirty and stalkerish. So, yeah. With you on that :-D

marlowe78
Nov. 9th, 2010 12:16 am (UTC)
Sorry, forgot to add that I too only (except that that is nothing to call 'only'!) friendship between the two actors (or the other actors)

While I'm at it, when it comes to unexplainable pairings...



Dean/Bobby?

Even writing it squicks me out. Or John/Bobby - which is a bit more funny than the first. Because D/B is SOOOOO close to parental incest, which is ABSOLUTELY NO!

hells_half_acre
Nov. 9th, 2010 12:32 am (UTC)
I commented on the friendship thing in my other reply...so in this one I'll just say:

Dean/Bobby = EEWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Oddly enough, I find the idea of Dean/Bobby even more squicky than John/Dean...though they're both repulsive. John/Bobby just makes me laugh, that's even more ridiculous than Sam/Gabriel.
hells_half_acre
Nov. 9th, 2010 12:30 am (UTC)
Yeah, I enjoy RPS-AU...because it is just like that: completely different characters who happen to look like the actors, but are not them.

I wrote a rant before on how I think friendship is better than romantic love...it's the "on love (and slash)" tag in my sidebar. So, I'm with you on that. I much prefer friendship fics than slash fics...or if they are slash fics, the emphasis has to be on the friendship rather than the porn for me to enjoy them.

But yeah, non-au squicks me to no end.
ramblin_rosie
Nov. 9th, 2010 12:31 am (UTC)
The problem I have with AU-RPF, slash or otherwise, is that it's essentially original fic with J2's names attached. Why not change the names and make it completely original?
hells_half_acre
Nov. 9th, 2010 12:39 am (UTC)
Because sadly, no one would read it :(

If you want to actually have many people read and appreciate your fic, you're better off writing RPS-AU than writing original fic. Trust me, I bet I could run an experiment...take the gay couple from my novel and post it on an original fic community, and then change their names and post it to an RPS community and I'd get TONS more feedback and appreciation.

People write RPS because it's a short-cut: A)you don't have to describe what your characters look like (not that you necessarily have to in a novel, but people often feel that they do), and B)you have an automatic fanbase that is going to read your story JUST BECAUSE of what your characters look like.

I'm not saying it's GOOD reasoning, but it's why people do it. I'd much prefer if there was the same market out there for original fic...because then maybe I'd be able to get the novel done, and have a ready made market for potential buyers :P
marlowe78
Nov. 9th, 2010 12:41 am (UTC)
Wondered myself. Sadly, the logical answer to that would be:
Nobody would read it if it was about Brian Morris and Dudley Adams :-(

But I developed a kink for people who go and at least write original friends in their stories, instead of just picking people from the CW-casting-list.


elliemurasaki
Nov. 8th, 2010 11:29 pm (UTC)
*shrugs* Sibling incest is a situational thing, one or both parents being absent or emotionally unavailable, and if that's not the Winchester childhood I don't know what was. I have trouble not seeing the Wincest, honestly.
hells_half_acre
Nov. 8th, 2010 11:38 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I'm more lenient on the wincest than I am with the other pairings, surprisingly. For instance, I'll occasionally read a wincest story, whereas I don't tend to touch Dean/Cas stories with ten-foot poles because I find it so unbelievable.

So, the fact that I find incest more believable than a non-incestuous pairing really says something about the foundation incest has on the show.

Like I said above - I definitely see the possibility for emotional incest...just the actual crossing of the line into sex I still find unbelievable.

(Now, that being said, I'm reading a series right now that does a very good job of showing how it could be possible, given only one changed variable...I was going to rec it after it was completed, if the rest is as good as the beginning.)
marlowe78
Nov. 9th, 2010 12:36 am (UTC)
Well, I certainly get where the wincest-ship is coming from. Absolutely! I also read some wincest-stories that make the step from 'possible' to 'yes' so believable that I just nod and add them to memories.

And I see that in their upbringing, sibling-incest might have happened or when you go to the purely emotional level (as opposed to the physical), already happened. I just do. not. see it on screen. Their relationship is very close and as I stated, very co-dependent, but still, at least for me, only in a older-brother, younger-brother kind of way.

Might be that for me, the relationship from Dean's POV is more one of parent-child than brother-brother. Being that responsible for the kid Sam was would - for me, this is totally only my opinion! - negate any sexual feeling in Dean towards his brother.

Add to that that Dean seems to be pretty much into girls and I just don't see it.

If it was ONLY the girl-thing, I would certainly make amends. Because I firmly believe that you can fall in love with someone even if you usually 'go' for the opposite sex. If you are lucky, you just ignore the parts that are like your own and live happily. Wish it were that easy for everybody :-(

As I said. I see where the wincest-idea is coming from. It holds certain merits - mainly, the pretty ;-) but also the delicious angst that would result. I just don't see a hint of it on screen.
hells_half_acre
Nov. 9th, 2010 12:42 am (UTC)
Might be that for me, the relationship from Dean's POV is more one of parent-child than brother-brother. Being that responsible for the kid Sam was would - for me, this is totally only my opinion! - negate any sexual feeling in Dean towards his brother.

I think this is one of the main things that drives me away from believing Wincest too. The fics where people manage to make it believable, tend to take out this element...yet, it's always present in the show, so although the occasional fanfic will get past my defenses, I'll never believe it based on the source material.
elliemurasaki
Nov. 8th, 2010 11:24 pm (UTC)
There is schmoopy curtainfic Dean/Alastair? *shudders*

The Sam/Gabriel fics I've seen that include more than just those two characters are nearly all Dean/Castiel, so I think it's a symmetry thing. Also there was this one absolutely hilarious Sam/Gabriel involving text-messaging. But in general, I'm with you on the Sam/Gabriel.
hells_half_acre
Nov. 8th, 2010 11:33 pm (UTC)
There is schmoopy curtainfic Dean/Alastair?

I hope not! *shudders too*

I was just saying that in terms of shipping a torturer with the tortured, at least Alistair/Dean stuff is sadistic and dark...to my knowledge. I really hope there aren't any schmoopy curtinfics out there!

Alright, if they are going for symmetry, I guess it's slim pickings...still, I'm not likely to read them. :P
ramblin_rosie
Nov. 8th, 2010 11:45 pm (UTC)
Agreed. Eventual friendship, sure, though I have to agree with Richard that Gabriel probably has more of a friendship already with Dean. A Sam-Gabe platoon on a mission, especially working alongside Dean-Cas, sure--I tend to write "the boys and their angels," and they often split up that way. But slash... I mean, I'm not a slash fan *anyway*, but S/G is one pairing I just don't get.
hells_half_acre
Nov. 8th, 2010 11:49 pm (UTC)
Oh yeah, if Gabe hasn't died, Sam could definitely work with him and get along reasonably well...but, they wouldn't be BFFs, let alone anything else.

After all, it was Sam who suggested trying to get the Trickster on board with their side before they even know it was Gabriel - so obviously Sam is willing to at least put Mystery Spot behind them if it means saving the world...but, yeah...I'd take sooner believe Sassy than S/G any day.
katsheswims
Nov. 9th, 2010 12:08 am (UTC)
Yeah, I don't really get Sam and Gabriel. Though I suppose I can understand why some people might like the pairing.

I also can't really see Castiel with Sam or Dean (or anyone) despite the hints given as fanservice/or a joke in the show.

I do read the Sam and Dean pairing, but it's not like I would think it would ever happen. Sure in fanfics reading about sex between them can be hot(though I prefer plot to sex), but thier relationship is already so codependant on the show I don't think they need (or want to add) lust to it as well. They already love each other more than anyone, and would almost put saving a brother above saving the world (like how Dean was feeling toward the end of S5, not wanting to sacrifice Sam).

So mostly I read gen in this fandom, but I do guiltily read a lot of sam/dean as well. There is surprisingly a lot well written.
hells_half_acre
Nov. 9th, 2010 12:27 am (UTC)
I agree with everything you just said!
mymuseandi
Nov. 9th, 2010 05:44 am (UTC)
I agree with the other commenter, about reading wincest because it happens only in fanfics. Because, honestly, i don't think it would be well received at all if that had been canon. Because it is not canon, that's why it's popular in fanfics. IMHO anyway.

So far i've read one Sam/Gabriel pairing, but that's in an AU-SPN setting, which, does that count? I don't think i can see how they could pair them up anyway. And i have never read Dean/Bobby or Sam/Bobby, and i don't want to. I think the John/Dean pairing is somewhat understandable to me because we don't see much of John in the series, and a lot of what we know about him is through the journals or when the boys speak of him, and most of it is left to our own intepretation, so the imagination does come up wild sometimes. But we see Bobby in canon, we saw how he interacts with the boys, and how so much more of a father he is to them now and then, when compared to John, and i cannot see how they could pair any one of the boys with him because, *shudders*

I read RPS. I did a couple of 'real' RPS myself, one of which is just RPF gen, and now after the boys are married i'm considering deleting the other one, because it was fun speculating when they are both not attached, and now i can't even look at the Sam/Ruby scene without feeling like a voyeur. LOL I'm sticking to AU-RPS for now, and liking it. Also, i don't necessarily 'see' the boys when reading them. Not sure how else to explain it, but there you go.

The one thing i wouldn't read though, is those underage pairings, because, no, just no. Not for me.
hells_half_acre
Nov. 9th, 2010 06:08 am (UTC)
Well, of course Wincest would never be canon...we just meant that in most slash fandoms, there's at least hints of 'sexual' tension to work off of, but not so in this one. (The exaggerated example would be the Naruto/Sasuke ship in Naruto, if you are at all familiar with it...or for a less obvious (but still obvious one) there's the Ray/Fraser ship in Due South. At least you had a certain relationship to build off of in fanfic).

I don't necessarily "see" the boys when I read RPS-AU. Actually, I came up for an idea for one once and had someone else write it - and really my idea was just for a general romance story...like I said to another commenter, you just change the names (and sometimes genders) and you have an automatic audience. So, I didn't even have the boys in mind (or their genders in mind) when I came up with the story.

now i can't even look at the Sam/Ruby scene without feeling like a voyeur.

LOL, SAME HERE! Oh man, I blush and look away now... (if you knew me, the idea of me blushing at anything would be pretty hilarious, but it's true!)
claudiapriscus
Nov. 9th, 2010 06:08 am (UTC)
I figured Sam/Gabriel was solely to pair with Dean/Castiel. I didn't really get it.

The only pairing I can see for Castiel....is pretty much any pairing, as long as it's end 'verse castiel. I'm not a fan of Dean/Castiel in a sex or romantic sense, because while their relationship is weird and intense and all of those things, half of the charge/tension there is because it *isn't* sexual or romantic- there's no easy outlet, no neat packaging.

But end 'verse...ah, well. I can see a lot of things in the end 'verse.
hells_half_acre
Nov. 9th, 2010 06:13 am (UTC)
I figured Sam/Gabriel was solely to pair with Dean/Castiel. I didn't really get it.

Seems to be the popular vote as to "why?"

And yes, I agree about End!verse Castiel. Castiel is just too asexual the way he is now.

You are also right about how the non-existence of an easy outlet for the tension makes the tension all that much more dynamic and interesting.
duowolf
Nov. 9th, 2010 07:48 am (UTC)
I have to admit I ship Dean/Castiel mainly because I have a thing about human/angel pairings. I balme it all on Evangelion really I do.

I don't get the Dean/Sam stuff though it really makes no sense at all to me.
hells_half_acre
Nov. 9th, 2010 08:26 am (UTC)
To me Cas is just to asexual. I don't get Wincest either, but at least the two of them have sex drives :P

You know, I watched Evangelion and was mainly just confused...I didn't come away with an angel/human fetish ;)
duowolf
Nov. 9th, 2010 01:04 pm (UTC)
Eva was pretty confushing I would agree.
ikira
Nov. 9th, 2010 02:29 pm (UTC)
I admit that I like Sam/Gabriel, for a few reasons. One is that I like Sam, and I like Gabriel. I think they're both awesome, so adding them together should make it even more awesome, right? The other reason is just that the writers for that pairing are really good. I'm the kind of person who will read any pairing, as long as the fic is written well.

And honestly, when Sam/Gabriel started up, I think it was a bit of a crack pairing. But it was a very pretty crack pairing, and who can resist pretty?
hells_half_acre
Nov. 9th, 2010 06:13 pm (UTC)
Fair enough! I've only read one Sam/Gabriel and it was a crack schmoopy domestic thing...that being said, I still didn't understand the pairing.

It may be that even though I really like Richard, I don't actually find him that pretty...not to say that he's not goodlooking, he just doesn't do anything for me personally.
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