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Today we had Shepherd's pie for dinner, and then a delicious fruit pie for dessert. It was very fitting for watching an episode of Supernatural. On my way home, I listened to Paranoid Android by Radiohead and found that very fitting as well.

I'm not even sure where to begin. For how little was actually revealed, it was a very heavy episode. I think this is one that I'll actually only be able to do justice to when I do my rewatch of the season next fall...

I suppose I'll start at the beginning...girl in the cafe was cute in that weird way, and everyone told her she was freaky looking. Now, although this was effective in getting her to kill herself, I don't think strangers (or even people she knew) would offer up secrets about HER. People are by nature self-obsessed. It would be far more likely that they'd tell her stuff like the bartender later told Dean...or like the old woman admitted.

Anyway, what I did love was their continued use of Big Gerson's. I love the fact that the Supernatural universe has it's own form of Denny's.

Now, we open with the Winchesters, and it's Dean on the phone to Bobby - complaining about Sam...now that he's back from Scotland and not a vampire, he's got time to call up his favorite surrogate father and whine a little. Bobby says he'll look into it though...maybe because Dean's his favorite (oh wait, we haven't gotten to that part yet.)

Dean's worried about being in the same car as Sam, and you can tell right away that he doesn't want to spend time with him anymore...and man, that says enough about their relationship at the moment right there. I like how Bobby tells Dean that Sam's his case right now so he better spend time with him. It's a good way to keep Dean focused. Bobby is good at that.

Sam tweaks them to the suicide case, and he's all enthusiastic about it, and Dean's like...yeah...sure...ok...*suspicious side glance*

And they go interview girly's sister and Sam RUTHLESSLY CUTS TO THE TRUTH! RUTHLESSLY! And Dean is all like "Dude..not cool, you are making a girl cry!" but he keeps it all in side, and instead gives Sam a suspicious look.

Oh man, and at some point there's that dentist scene - and yeah, ok, the perv totally had it coming...but I had to look away. My friend said it looked pretty fake, but I can't even stomach fake stuff most of the time, so yeah...looked away on that.

Anyway, I like Dean in the motel scenes...we get a phone call to Bobby...where Bobby hasn't found anything. I like the conversation where Dean says the worst case scenario is that Sam is Lucifer, and Bobby says that the worst case scenario is actually that Sam is just Sam...because that's not a monster they can kill, that just means his bother is f*cked up. (And I'm starting to wonder if this is the case...though, I think there has to be some Supernatural element to it).

Then we get a Cas scene - I love the ways Dean prays to Cas this season. You know, continuity or no, (and I'm totally retro-actively continuitizing the fifth season now and saying that they could have prayed to Cas then too...just because that's the way I roll), I'm getting a huge kick out of these praying scenes.

I think Cas pouring Dean a drink is saying a LOT...because although Cas is saying that he's not there to help Dean with Sam, he says this while SERVING Dean. There's a reason Jesus was always going around washing people's feet (contrary to popular belief, he wasn't a foot fetishist)...it's deliberately humbling yourself. It's Cas' apologizing and telling Dean that he's still Cas' friend and fellow Team Free Will comrade. Anyway, it was a REALLY nice subtle touch. I'm willing to bet that Castiel is totally going to come through at some point with this Sam issue...

In the meantime though, Dean still has to deal with Sam...and umm...like most things, it seems Dean's solution is GET DRUNK! Oh Dean...I did really like the exchange with the bartender, where she's says "I thought you were working" and Dean says "I'm working up to it." ...speaking as someone who hates their job, I can really sympathize.

But Dean says the magic words and invokes the Veritas. We get a very nice close-up of Jensen's mouth. I believe my thoughts were "Ooo...mustache whiskers! Wait, what was he saying?" Seriously show...way to be distracting with body parts.

I liked Dean walking past the woman who admitted to showing off her breasts for attention, and then walking back and staring at her breasts while she giggled. Say what you want about the Male Gaze, he totally just made her day...she paid good money for those boobs!

So, Dean calls Bobby to see if it works over the phone, and it DOES! We find out that:
1)Bobby likes Tori Spelling (I admit-I have also watched and enjoyed an episode or two of her reality show)
2)Bobby gets pedicures and there's one Vietnamese girl that really turns his crank.
3)Dean is Bobby's favorite (I'm SHOCKED ;)  )
4)Sam's a better Hunter "these days" though
5)Bobby's first girlfriend turned out to be a ??? (Oh man, the possibilities!)

I like Bobby telling Dean that he's his favorite so matter of factly...not that I don't feel bad for Sam not being Bobby's favorite (Seriously, Sam is ONLY Dean's favorite, I think...I'm pretty sure John favoured Dean too, if only because he was obedient). But I liked Bobby admitting Dean was his favorite because:
A)Dean needs to hear stuff like that.
B)We've already gotten plenty of evidence of that, since Bobby and Dean have had WAY more relationship building moments than Bobby and Sam.
C)He said it so matter of factly that it was, I think, probably the most parental-type thing that Bobby has ever said. (And that sounds weird, since parents are never supposed to admit to having favorites...but we all know they secretly do...or at least "love you for different reasons")

Lisa calls Dean, and yeah...bad timing there. I really wish I had this episode downloaded already so that I could replay this scene, because it's SO heavy in psychological richness. Like any good woman, Lisa completely rips Dean apart by psychoanalyzing him. I actually really liked this, because it IS the truth. Lisa bluntly tells Dean that she basically only took him in because Sam was gone, that once Sam came back, she knew they were over - that Dean has a screwed up, unhealthy, relationship with his brother. The thing I liked most: DEAN AGREES.

There are a couple of fans out there (perhaps the same ones that like Twilight?) who really put the Sam and Dean's relationship on this pedestal...they commend what are basically symptoms of a severely unhealthy relationship as being signs of how GOOD the relationship is, how much love is there. And yeah, ok, there's love...but um..there's also co-dependent obsession and psychosis. It's like in China, it's considered romantic to stalk people and be creepy...that's great for the Chinese, but personally, if someone stalks and creeps me out, I am not going to date them. The Twilight books do a similar thing, where they basically venerate an abusive relationship as the romantic ideal. Now, the thing about Supernatural I like is that they've always either subtly (or not so subtly) implied that Dean and Sam do not actually have a healthy relationship - yet they've usually only said so in a joking manner...this is the first time they've really laid it out clear as day in a very serious manner...and had one of the brother's agree, instead of getting defensive about it.

I'm just saying that I really liked it.

I feel REALLY bad for Dean though, because things with Lisa shouldn't have ended like that...more importantly, things with BEN shouldn't have ended like that. If this is the only goodbye he gets...well, I just think that's a really shitty way to leave things. Someone needs to write me a future-fic coda where Ben tracks Dean down and they have a good talk or something.

Anyway, Dean goes to see Sam and tries out the whole truth thing...and Sam TOTALLY LIES TO HIM. Even before the episode aired, my friend predicted that Sam would be immune...so, she wins the slice of pie on that one. Dean buys it though, maybe at this point just because he wants to.

They go off to find the demi-God, and decide that it's gotta be the new reporter in town. So they break into the studios to get tapes as proof...and Sam stays up all night, sitting in the exact same position while Dean eat pizza, and has coffee, and generally goes about the process of living. Until finally they catch some odd eyes that are enough proof for them, then they go stalk the woman.

She lives in a glass house. How fitting.

She also likes cats.

She also has her own butchery. 

Dean and Sam get knocked out...and they're always so pretty when they're unconscious.

They wake up tied to pipes, but luckily Sam has a knife up his sleeve and gets to work. But Veritas decides to torture Dean some more...Dean admits to wanting to kill Sam in his sleep because he was worried he was monster, but thankfully he's still deluding himself with believing Sam's earlier lies, so he says that he doesn't anymore, and he understands that Sam is just him now....repressing everything.

Oh, speaking of repressing...I love the fact that Lisa calls him on that  too. Especially since it seems to come up in this VERY EPISODE.

Dean then says that he's alright with Sam being back, because he had told himself he wanted a family - but that's not him. He's better at slicing throats. He's "a killer not a father"...and man, YES. This is heartbreaking, but TRUE. Dean has known this for a very long time too...back in S2, he told Jo that there was still time for her to do something with her life, but that it was "too late for [him]." All Dean has known since he was 5 is killing...that's all he was raised for...Daddy's blunt little weapon, or whatever Dream!Dean taunted Dean with. Sam at least had a relatively sheltered childhood for his first 8 or 9 years, and then four years at university. Dean was raised for killing, and one year in suburbia isn't going to change that. Dean tried, but he never really was completely happy there. And yes, it's a horrible fate...and it's horrible that Dean is basically someone who will always be denied full happiness (unless he has a hunting family, but his own morals wouldn't allow him to do that to his kids). Actually, come to think of it, Dean knew back in S1 that this was his fate...Shifter!Dean told Sam so. That Dean was jealous that Sam got to go be normal, while Dean was still, and would always be, "a freak."

So, what was I saying? Oh yeah...so, Dean manages not to hurt Sam's feelings too much, and then Veritas turns to Sam....and Sam is immune. He pretends to be telling the truth, but she knows he's not and it FREAKS HER OUT! And it also freaks Dean out.

But Sammy is getting strangled again! And the fact that I take that as a sign of hope has got to be the oddest thing about being a fan of this show.

Dean saves him! Woo! But then holds him at knife point, because he is freaked out.

So, Sam's gives him the truth "God's honest"...and, I actually believe that it IS the truth this time. Sam knows something is wrong - he's a better hunter than he's ever been, because he has absolutely no capacity to feel anything deeply. He has only surface emotions. He doesn't have the type of emotions that make your guts twist or your heart seize or leap. Sam doesn't feel anything, and he thinks he needs help.

So, Dean puts down the knife and...

BEATS SAM UNTIL HE IS UNCONSCIOUS!

Can I just say...BEST ENDING EVER! I'm actually serious. At first I was like "what the f*ck! They can't end a show that way!" but then I realized it was brilliant, because I was sitting there with both a small feeling of resolution (they'd no longer be dancing around the issue of Sam's estrangement) and I was on the edge of my seat.

Also, I totally read Dean's last face as "Oh shit, now I've got to carry him out to the car" (Hahaha)

Actually, I read it as "Maybe Lisa was right about me repressing things"...because that was totally a repression-beating. Sam cost him Lisa and Ben. Sam watched him get turned (which ok, he let it happen because he knew Dean could handle it, but there are healthier ways to display the trust you have in your brother, Sam!) and also, Dean had just had really really shitty day.

Plus, it keeps up with the continuity of the show - Sam has never hit Dean without being hopped up on SOME form of goofballs, whereas Dean has hit Sam numerous times while completely sober (or as sober as Dean gets). Sam is totally the battered wife in their little emotionally incestuous pairing.

This episode continued the Dean POV, which we've really only had a break from in Weekend at Bobby's...but even then, we had Dean POV on the brief scenes with the Winchesters. Going forward from here, I'd love to eventually get a Sam POV episode.

For next time though, I'm mainly just interested to see if there's any fallout to Dean beating his brother unconscious.

Wow, that was a long one! REALLY cool episode, in my humble opinion. 

Comments

( 35 comments — Leave a comment )
baruchan
Oct. 30th, 2010 08:23 am (UTC)
The ending is the reason why I'd love to hit Dean and his repressing ways. I get that dealing with the emotional vampire half of an emotionally incestuous co-dependent relationship is frustrating. But hitting Sam would only make Dean guilty aftwerwards, which would make him repress his feelings even more, until he couldn't stand it any longer and explode and the whole vicious cycle repeats once more.

On a more positive note, I love that Dean calls Bobby first to test his curse. And I love Jim Beaver's acting here, he delivered his lines really well: "I love Tori Spelling, I ocassionally get pedicures, and oh, by the way, you're my favorite..."

I also agree with you on the Cas-pouring-Dean-a-drink thing. Cas may be a grumpy, irritable, impatient BAMF (not in this episode, though, alas; the poor guy looks so tired), but he still shows he cares about Dean in the little things he does. And I really hope he does come through for Sam, as well as interact with the Campbells directly somehow, just to tie up all of the season's plot threads together.

The only thing this episode lacks is Cas. THIS SHOW NEEDS MORE CAS. (I do realize, though, that with a new baby and all, Misha wouldn't be able to shoot more scenes than he's shot so far. D:)
hells_half_acre
Oct. 30th, 2010 08:33 am (UTC)
Yeah, I think Dean regrets every single time he hits Sam...and he's really going to regret this one (unless he didn't actually believe Sam, and he thought it was more lies and that Sam couldn't be trusted and he's a monster). It's not a good response...

...and really, as much as I feel bad for Dean losing Lisa and Ben...I sort of agree that he might not be someone that's suitable to be around Ben anymore (or if he ever was). The fact of the matter is that Dean needs therapy that he's never going to get.

Well, technically, Misha hadn't had his baby yet when they were filming this episode. (If he suddenly disappeared after the next episode or the one after that, then we can blame it on the baby though.)

Cas is a tricky thing to keep in the show though, personally, we should be thankful they're able to sneak him in at all. He throws the power dynamic too much in their favour, so there's no tension or danger when he's around. He is TOO MUCH of a BAMF.

Though, yeah, he is a worn out one. I think he needs some hugs.
baruchan
Oct. 30th, 2010 08:48 am (UTC)
He throws the power dynamic too much in their favour, so there's no tension or danger when he's around. He is TOO MUCH of a BAMF.
Drat. And I was thinking that there are no downsides to being a BAMF. :D Seriously though, I just wish that Cas doesn't end up being used as a deus ex machina in the future. Of all the plot devices I dislike, that's the one I hate the most.
hells_half_acre
Oct. 30th, 2010 07:24 pm (UTC)
Yeah, that's why Crowley kind of irked me at the end of S5.

If you read VVV, you'll totally see what I mean about Castiel. I have half a mind to write him out of the big fight scene, because although I think I've worked him in alright, I still feel like he's shifted the power dynamic too much and what I have is stupid and unrealistic. Sigh.
lelaro
Oct. 30th, 2010 11:08 pm (UTC)
hugs for cas all around!

any volunteers?

*cowers from hoard of misha minion stampede*
borgmama1of5
Oct. 30th, 2010 08:25 am (UTC)
Devasting. Lisa's phone call and Dean's line that he's a killer, not a father--combined they just about put me in total despair that Dean will ever find happiness.

However, I also had a thought. This season could trun out to be the reverse parallel of season 3: this time Dean has to save Sam (his soul) while in 3 Sam had to save Dean from Hell.

I hope Dean is more successful...
hells_half_acre
Oct. 30th, 2010 08:36 am (UTC)
Poor Dean...he lost A LOT this episode. Lisa, Ben, his hope of a different life...and, fundamentally, his brother. Personally, I'd want to punch someone unconscious too (not saying it's healthy, just saying that we all get urges sometimes).

You are right! It does make a nice parallel to season 3. I hope Dean is more successful as well - it'd be nice for the Winchesters to actually succeed in something for a change.
claudiapriscus
Oct. 30th, 2010 05:02 pm (UTC)
>>You know, continuity or no, (and I'm totally retro-actively continuitizing the fifth season now and saying that they could have prayed to Cas then too...just because that's the way I roll), I'm getting a huge kick out of these praying scenes.

*handwave* It only works if the angel in question isn't cut off from Heaven! *handwave*

>>feel REALLY bad for Dean though, because things with Lisa shouldn't have ended like that...more importantly, things with BEN shouldn't have ended like that.

I'm 90% they'll be back.

>>'m pretty sure John favoured Dean too, if only because he was obedient).

Not that it really has any relevance anymore, but my take was the opposite. Dean was obedient, yeah, but all that fighting and passion between Sam and his dad... I don't know, that reads to me of a certain type of favoritism. And not just in a "he's got a dark destiny" sort of way. He cared enough to have the big screaming fights. It's hard to factor Dean's reactions into this because his perceptions are extraordinarily skewed by his self-esteem issues, but, eh. Just in the little things, I've gotten the impression that John was more focused on Sam (once again, beyond the dark destiny thing).
hells_half_acre
Oct. 30th, 2010 07:21 pm (UTC)
*handwave* It only works if the angel in question isn't cut off from Heaven! *handwave*

D'oh! I guess that makes sense. There goes my idea of using it in my S5-set fanfic :P I'll just have to have Castiel actually be good at goodbyes instead, and hope no one notices.

I suppose what John showed towards Sam was a TYPE of favoritism. In that he devoted 90% of his attention towards him. I just think that he got along better with Dean, and had a slightly more affectionate relationship with Dean than he did with Sam...but you do have a point (or was it Dream!Dean or the YED's point?)...I do remember someone saying something similar to Dean over the years.
katsheswims
Oct. 30th, 2010 05:07 pm (UTC)
Totally agree!!

I was a little worried about the ending, but it really fits in with Dean's character. It reminded me of the other scenes were Dean just breaks and starts attacking/beating on something/one. The implala after thier father's death, the dream!demon!Dean, and ghoul!Adam are examples...

I loved your quick litttle anaylsis of Dean that goes back to S1. "Skin" was an episode that I loved, and that part where shifter!Dean talks to Sam and calls himself a freak still makes me wince. But it shows Dean's low opinion of himself, and how he always knew he would never get out of the life (and I don't think he completely wants to, even with Lisa).

Poor Dean though. I feel so bad for him, but at the same time I'm happy that things are finally broken with Lisa, and he's on his way to figuring out what is wrong with Sam and hopefully how to help him.
hells_half_acre
Oct. 30th, 2010 07:35 pm (UTC)
That's very true, me and my friend were actually joking about that after the episode ended. "The impala isn't close by, so Dean has to beat up the other thing that he cares most about in the world"

But it's true, during other very emotional-stressful episodes, Dean has beat the shit out of something at the end...like dream!Dean and ghoul!Adam...or killed by saw Vampire...or well, the list goes on. And usually (if he's aware of it and not bleeding to death), Sam will make *concerned face*, but yeah..

I don't think he completely wants to get out of the life either. I think I've said it so far, but my take on Dean in 6x01 was that he was fundamentally unhappy, but doing his best not to be. Back in S1, even though he was jealous that Sam got out of the life, I think Dean had made peace with hunting being his life and he was ENJOYING it...it was only when his Dad died and passed on the message about Sam that Dean suddenly wanted out completely.
elliemurasaki
Oct. 30th, 2010 10:33 pm (UTC)
Aw. First thing I thought when I saw the October 2010 calendar was "hells_half_acre's gonna have a conniption" and you didn't even MENTION IT.
hells_half_acre
Oct. 30th, 2010 10:45 pm (UTC)
Hahaha, perfect timing! I was just going through the episode again to timeline it, and was having a conniption over the calendar :P

Sigh...part of me really wants to write the props/art department and tell them they are getting it wrong...and then another part of me is sitting there thinking "do you really want to be that person?"

In the meantime, it looks like I'll have to put a disclaimer over my S6 timeline to explain why everything is marked 2011 even though it shows up as 2010 in the actual episode. :P
trystan830
Oct. 31st, 2010 03:03 am (UTC)
I totally read Dean's last face as "Oh shit, now I've got to carry him out to the car" (Hahaha)
heee! i asked Dean if he felt better after that. i mean, i said it out loud to my tv. for realz.

i thought it was a very cool episode, so you're not alone in that.
hells_half_acre
Oct. 31st, 2010 03:07 am (UTC)
Haha, nice.

Yay for people who like episodes! ;)
trystan830
Oct. 31st, 2010 03:25 am (UTC)
i know, right?

*nods* of course, there's the segment of fandom that probably hated it. but i don't read those reviews.
akadougal
Nov. 1st, 2010 06:22 pm (UTC)
I agree. Yeah, I don't have much else. I'm going to rewatch it soon.

But Sammy is getting strangled again! And the fact that I take that as a sign of hope has got to be the oddest thing about being a fan of this show.

Also, laughed and sprayed coffee over computer. Fab!
hells_half_acre
Nov. 2nd, 2010 12:39 am (UTC)
Haha, I hope your computer is ok ;)
sinesofinsanity.dreamwidth.org
Nov. 2nd, 2010 03:00 am (UTC)
I really liked this episode, Robot!Sam is even more bizarre than usual and actually vaguely Lucifer-ish. But not enough. (Speaking of which, I want Adam back. If Sam got out why not him? The kid deserves a break. And while we're bringing people back from the dead, let's bring back Gabriel. And Ellen. Possibly Jo)

I think one of the biggest problems with Dean, is that he really wants to be happy, but he doesn't know how to do that. Hunting used to make him happy, but it was never the killing or the "slitting throats" bit. Back in S1 and S2 he talked a lot about saving people, and that's what it was for him. He enjoyed knowing that because of him, one more family is sleeping safe, one more kid is growing up with a mom, and one more kid didn't get drowned by an angry ghost. And he liked the investigation, checking things out and chatting it up with the witnesses (esp if they were hot). That was why hunting made him happy. Hunting isn't that anymore. During the apocalypse it was all of heaven and hell out to kill everyone, choices were getting fewer and poorer and the only option was to keep killing back. Now with Robo-Sam and the Campbells, hunting is all intimidation, creepy secrets, and lies.

I think Dean could be happy with Lisa and Ben. I think he was starting to, at the very least he was becoming vaguely satisfied with his life, and he had happy moments. He maybe hadn't quite realized it yet, but if he'd stayed, he'd have eventually been able to calm down a bit more and become happy with his life. That's ruined now. If he went back he could still be happy with her, but it would take more work than if he'd never left.

Long story short, Dean doesn't know how to be happy, and doesn't know where or how to look for it. What used to make him happy is broken, and what could make him happy doesn't yet.
hells_half_acre
Nov. 2nd, 2010 03:05 am (UTC)
I agree with everything you just said!

Also...Dean sounds like me. :(
marlowe78
Nov. 3rd, 2010 02:08 pm (UTC)
I think Cas pouring Dean a drink is saying a LOT...because although Cas is saying that he's not there to help Dean with Sam, he says this while SERVING Dean. There's a reason Jesus was always going around washing people's feet (contrary to popular belief, he wasn't a foot fetishist)...it's deliberately humbling yourself. It's Cas' apologizing and telling Dean that he's still Cas' friend and fellow Team Free Will comrade. Anyway, it was a REALLY nice subtle touch. I'm willing to bet that Castiel is totally going to come through at some point with this Sam issue...

Dude... I never thought about that! Sneaky... and great at the same time. My conciliation, though, is that Dean probably doesn't recognize it as well ;-)

I liked Dean walking past the woman who admitted to showing off her breasts for attention, and then walking back and staring at her breasts while she giggled. Say what you want about the Male Gaze, he totally just made her day...she paid good money for those boobs!

One of the nicest things in that episode. Not only because he was nice to her, but also because of the glimpse of DEAN, as we were introduced to him. *sigh* It's not just Sam I miss.

Seriously, Sam is ONLY Dean's favorite, I think...I'm pretty sure John favoured Dean too, if only because he was obedient

Well, if that is really the case, it's pretty damn sad for Sammy. I'm not sure though, about John. I don't have kids, so I'll just take dogs as a metaphor, but I'm sure on some level it might as well work for children:
You have two dogs(kids). One is obedient, does everything without at once, reliable to a fault, kills itself for every bit of attention and never even tries to take the lead. The other is rambunctious, questions your authority, runs away and clearly has its own head. Like... Jack-Russel-Terrier and German Shepherd.

Now, some might love the Shepherd more, because they are reliable and nice and do what you want. Certainly, they can USE the BC much more, the job is easier when you don't have to fight your dog all the way through.

But... that Terrier is funny. He is smart, outsmarts you and his pal, the Shepherd every time you look away. Yes, he challenges you, and yes, you get SO pissed. But you secretly admire his spark, his unending enthusiasm, His tenacious will to get what it wants.

So. You love both dogs. They are yours, you raised them. They brighten your life, the one through being a sparkly cracker, the other for learning fast every trick you want it to learn. But you KNOW the terrier is as smart as the other one. He's just different and his intelligence is used in other ways - in getting what HE wants, not what YOU want.
And you might find yourself living for the crazy stuff the terrier does. Sure, you punish it more often than the Shepherd. But it also gets away with more, because you admire the fire in it and you sometimes just have to smile instead of being angry.

And in the deep of the night, you might think that if pressed, the Terrier is more precious to you.

I honestly think that John LIKED Sam better, because he had his own head. Sure, it was absolutely infuriating to fight against him every step of the way, and he might have been deliberately nicer to Dean, to make press him into obeying.
But behind closed doors, I think he'd have laughed about Sam's fire and rebellion, been proud of his smart boy. And maybe he liked Sam a bit better, if pressed.

It would fit with giving his soul for Dean, because sure he loved both boys, he didn't want to fight anymore anyway. And he felt guilty, for maybe liking Sam more than Dean, even though Dean did what he was asked whenever he asked.

I agree, though, that Sam didn't really get anything out of that. So even if the YED told the truth, Sam still always was the odd one out in the family.
Poor Sammy :-(

(tbc)
hells_half_acre
Nov. 3rd, 2010 06:10 pm (UTC)
My conciliation, though, is that Dean probably doesn't recognize it as well ;-)

These things work on a subconscious level ;)

Not only because he was nice to her, but also because of the glimpse of DEAN, as we were introduced to him. *sigh* It's not just Sam I miss.

It's true. Dean's been a bit too stressed lately to ogle people.

Re: Favorites - I like your dog analogy, and I think it works. The truth is (and I sort of alluded to it, I suppose) is that parents do love their children for different reasons, but it doesn't make their love less. I think in the case of the obedient dog vs. the "sparky" dog probably what happens is that because the obedient dog is obedient, it is easy to assume that dog knows that you love it - whereas the "sparky" dog will get more praise the few times it is good than the obedient dog gets, even though it is good all the time. Hence Dean's belief (that the YED prayed on) that Sam was John's favorite - Sam got more attention therefore he was his favorite.

I think John RELIED on Dean and maybe took him for granted.

Personally, Dean's obedience would make him MY favorite. Mainly because I can't stand people who don't know how to pick their battles (*cough*Sam*cough). You can get a lot more accomplished by making someone believe you are working with them, than outrightly declaring that you are working against them. Then again, my best friend once did tell me that he thought I was "someone who just had to be obeyed."
marlowe78
Nov. 3rd, 2010 07:17 pm (UTC)
Personally, Dean's obedience would make him MY favorite.

Funny. I first had huge problems with Dean, because of his obedience. I understood Sam's dash for freedom perfectly, thought really that I was more a Sam-girl (for about two episodes, but... yeah.) What I had a problem with was this tiny mean-streak he had, the 'I know better' attitude he showed sometimes.

I am one of the persons who love the sparky dogs - wouldn't want one, though :-D
Too much trouble, too wearisome.

Mainly because I can't stand people who don't know how to pick their battles (*cough*Sam*cough). You can get a lot more accomplished by making someone believe you are working with them, than outrightly declaring that you are working against them.

Yeah. I've always thought Sammy had a bit of a problem with his temper. And he still reminds me so often of a child with a tantrum, like when he said that he went with Ruby because Dean was so bossy. Uh... not really the brightest way of showing how grown-up you are. even if it might be a viable reason (which I think not, but that's me)

And this head-through-the-wall attitude is really not that smart against a headstrong father. I can see Dean weaseling around his dad so at the end, Sam got what he wanted, because Dean knew how to play the fiddle - and whe to just take the song and sing along.


Then again, my best friend once did tell me that he thought I was "someone who just had to be obeyed."

Uh... kinda scary.
hells_half_acre
Nov. 3rd, 2010 07:38 pm (UTC)
I am one of the persons who love the sparky dogs - wouldn't want one, though :-D

I wouldn't want any kind of dog. My best friend thinks it's because I have "emotional issues", but I just think it's too much responsibility. :P

Funny. I first had huge problems with Dean, because of his obedience. I understood Sam's dash for freedom perfectly, thought really that I was more a Sam-girl

Well, I was mostly just commenting from John's POV...as in, if John were me, who would he like better. I think I've mostly been bi-bro from the start...well, maybe I started off a bit more of a Dean-girl, just because he was prettier (I've since met Jared in person and retract that view), and easier to understand - I mean, how can you not love a guy who just wants his family to be together and safe?

But yeah...where as I going with that? I have no idea.

Dean knew how to play the fiddle - and whe to just take the song and sing along.

Agreed.

Uh... kinda scary.

Apparently. I once had one of my university professors tell me that I was intimidating :P
marlowe78
Nov. 3rd, 2010 02:09 pm (UTC)
There are a couple of fans out there (perhaps the same ones that like Twilight?) who really put the Sam and Dean's relationship on this pedestal...they commend what are basically symptoms of a severely unhealthy relationship as being signs of how GOOD the relationship is, how much love is there.

Hmmm.
That's a tough one. Because I basically agree that it's unhealthy, that dependence on the other - I think more from Dean's side than from Sam, who actually always kinda wanted to have his own life, and dammit, DESERVES to have it. I don't put it on a pedestal (I hope...), though. I see the love and trust and loyalty in the earlier seasons, but I mostly see one brother who knows what he wants and living in his brother's pockets is NOT it, and one brother who has woven his whole being so tightly into the other that he can't separate himself anymore.

Then again, whenever one of them tries for his own life, LIFE throws a spanner in all of that. Sam went to Stanford - Jess burned (you could argue Dean came, but I believe she'd have died without the trip to Jericho). Sam wanted to find John, Dean got kidnapped by a pagan-god-worshipping-ring.
Sam dying and coming back is wholly on Dean, though.
But then... Dean sells his soul and Sam disintegrates from guilt and call for vengeance. Sam makes a dash at his goal and sets Lucifer free.
In s5, they separate and Dean ACTUALLY AGREES (big step up!) and he gets thrown into a future where Sam is Lucifer, and Dean a fucked-up cold-blooded bastard. So well, there wasn't much else to do but go back, right?
Then there is Swan Song, Sam dies and Dean TRIES for normal, for his own life. He WANTS that, but he also knows that Sam is in Hell (not simply dead, which would be bad but not ... that bad) and he can't let go. Not knowing what he knows of Hell, not hoping and fearing for the day Sam comes back - as a demon? As Lucifer? Not at all?

So now Sam is back, and well, this time it's Sam who comes knocking (later than would've been polite, but that might be my Dean-girl speaking) and his new life is threatened - and, uh, I'm kinda thinking Sam is a bit possessive.

It's highly co-dependent and highly unhealthy, you and Lees are right about that. But you alos have to take into account that apparently, whenever one of them tries to break loose, life kicks them together again. Or kills them off.

BTW, I can't stand Twilight. But I'm not sure that I dislike the closeness they had in the beginning of the series.

Oh, and I also loved that scene with Lisa. Hope we might get some more of her, no matter how this call ended.


Dean buys it though, maybe at this point just because he wants to.

Had to be the reason. Anyone could see that Sam lied.



Can I just say...BEST ENDING EVER!


Why is that? I mean, I totally agree, but WHY? It's not even Sam's fault, right? He lied - and, uh, yes, he could've been less pragmatic with the whole vampire thing, but there is the element of not his fault ... so why do we all (sorry, not all, but many) love this ending for this violent BAM?

Sam is totally the battered wife in their little emotionally incestuous pairing.

Oh, absolutely! I laughed about that, though. I think that of the two of them, Dean is the one who HAS to get physically violent, probably because of all the repressing things. But I still see Sam as the one who with the way bigger capacity for hurting Dean, not only physically (which... uh, no chance, Dean) but psychologically. Sam, whenever he gets hopped up on something, knows where to place the barbs and in light of that nastiness (which is not really part of healthy-Sam, I think), Dean is just helpless. So he beats on Sam.

Man, how a show with so short screen-time can do so much with these two characters is amazing, isn't it? Because the supernatural element aside, both staid believable the whole time, even though we often needed to wait a bit until we saw it. Love that about my favourite show!


Sorry for just butting in here. But I liked your views and had fun putting in my two cents. Hope that's all right...
hells_half_acre
Nov. 3rd, 2010 06:31 pm (UTC)
but I mostly see one brother who knows what he wants and living in his brother's pockets is NOT it, and one brother who has woven his whole being so tightly into the other that he can't separate himself anymore.

This is true. But that being said, Sam's love for Dean is obsessive and possessive and all consuming. Sam might not outrightly define himself by his relationship with Dean, but he also can't live without him - or at least can't live in a world where Dean isn't.

But then... Dean sells his soul and Sam disintegrates from guilt and call for vengeance.

I also think a lot of S4 was the result of Dean's absence during the summer months. After years of Dean telling Sam what to do, Sam NEEDED that. He couldn't make decisions on his own (whether he realized this or not). S4 might have looked like Sam trying to make his own decisions, but it was actually Sam switching the general that he obeyed. Think about what he said to Dean about Ruby - "What she said - it's what YOU would have said." Ruby was able to step into the Dean-sized gulf in Sam's life and take over that gentle-guiding role...yes, Sam chose to obey her even after Dean got back, but when Dean got back he was messed up from hell and also a lot less GENTLY guiding than before...at least Ruby led Sam to believe that Sam was making his own decisions, Dean in S4 took that illusion away from Sam when he ordered him around.

Anyway, that's just the way I see it.

But I'm not sure that I dislike the closeness they had in the beginning of the series.

Oh I'm not saying you should! I like the closeness they had in the beginning too...and their relationship was healthier then...Sam was just coming off 4 years of actual independence, and Dean was coming off 4 years of NOT having his primary function in life being "look after Sam."

Why is that? I mean, I totally agree, but WHY? It's not even Sam's fault, right? He lied - and, uh, yes, he could've been less pragmatic with the whole vampire thing, but there is the element of not his fault ... so why do we all (sorry, not all, but many) love this ending for this violent BAM?

Personally, I love it BECAUSE Sam doesn't deserve it. I love it BECAUSE it's absolutely HORRIBLE TO WATCH. I love it because Dean is a flawed human being who is making a mistake. It's the same reason we all love (and find it hard to watch) the end of EBLAC when Dean beats the hell out of the Impala. It's hard to explain, maybe...but I suppose I just like because it's realistic.

Dean is the one who HAS to get physically violent, probably because of all the repressing things. But I still see Sam as the one who with the way bigger capacity for hurting Dean, not only physically (which... uh, no chance, Dean) but psychologically.

Very true!

Man, how a show with so short screen-time can do so much with these two characters is amazing, isn't it?

It really is. I think the writing team is amazing, and that they REALLY lucked out with having actors as good as Jensen and Jared play their main characters. Every year they just seem to get better and more amazing.

Sorry for just butting in here. But I liked your views and had fun putting in my two cents. Hope that's all right...

Dude, more than! I love discussing this show! Feel free to add your two cents any time!
marlowe78
Nov. 3rd, 2010 07:02 pm (UTC)
Well, if it's ok....

Personally, I love it BECAUSE Sam doesn't deserve it. I love it BECAUSE it's absolutely HORRIBLE TO WATCH. I love it because Dean is a flawed human being who is making a mistake. It's the same reason we all love (and find it hard to watch) the end of EBLAC when Dean beats the hell out of the Impala. It's hard to explain, maybe...but I suppose I just like because it's realistic.

Yes, that's probably a big reason. I get Dean on a subconscious level that I don't manage with Sam. For understanding Sam, I always need to think. Dean, I just get.

And I think I felt the level of frustration, of stress rising, starting from s4 and never really letting up. Whenever there was a tiny break, life kicked him in the nuts all the harder next time.
So along with so many fans, it just felt the only possible outcome for someone who is as volatile as Dean.

And yes, ELAC! I LOVE it, for the sheer awesomeness of acting. I never had a problem getting Dean's frustration, the feeling of "STOP ALREADY, I can't take anymore!" Not even when we were left in the dark about John's final words. I always felt that there is a reason for him to be like that, and I GOT that.

Maybe it's a guy-thing? I'm not a guy, but I often feel closer to men than to women, at least when it comes to behavior. I mean, I still mainly have female friends, but I'm not a touchy-feely person, I feel uncomfortable around emotions and my way of coping with a fight is acting normal afterwards to show that there are no hard feelings.
Makes my mom crazy, because she is absolutely different. Fighting tends to get nasty, and I just avoid doing that - which frustrates her even more ;-)

And YES to the 'flawed human being'. That's why I like his character so much: he is plain human. He's ALWAYS been the human Han Solo to Sam's Skywalker, the Batman to Sam's ... huh. Superman, maybe. And I love that about him.

I wouldn't mind some explanation how Dean could kill the whore of Babylon, or Zach, though. Maybe it's that special "spark of God" that supposedly sits in every human, and it's only brighter in Dean?
Maybe Chuck wrote it in :-D





marlowe78
Nov. 3rd, 2010 07:07 pm (UTC)
Dude, my brain is leaking... Forgot:
It really is. I think the writing team is amazing, and that they REALLY lucked out with having actors as good as Jensen and Jared play their main characters. Every year they just seem to get better and more amazing.

I don't think this show would've hit it that much with different actors. And I totally include the hype about their physical appearance - yummy.

But basically, it's the damn skill they show. I think JA a bit more, but JP sometimes just blows me away with his performance, like last ep, or in BUABS.
And then there is this mad spark between them, the fun you see in the interviews. IF it is all fake, they are even better actors, but I think it isn't, and that just adds to the skill and the huge fan-base. (Which, if I were them, I'd be a bit scared about. Man...)


hells_half_acre
Nov. 3rd, 2010 07:29 pm (UTC)
Definitely definitely. I think JA had more acting experience going in, and it showed, but that JP has really improved by leaps and bounds over the years and they're pretty much equal now. Especially given the fact that I really think JP was given the harder character to portray. (Not to say Dean is simple at all, of course...but like you said, you have to think about where Sam is coming from, whereas with Dean you just know.)

The "mad spark" really helps...and both boys have said that too. How they didn't realize how important chemistry was for a successful project until they started working with each other and HAD it.

There is absolutely no way you can fake that.
hells_half_acre
Nov. 3rd, 2010 07:25 pm (UTC)
I agree with everything you just said.

Maybe it's a guy-thing? I'm not a guy, but I often feel closer to men than to women, at least when it comes to behavior.

I'm the same way. A major reason I like this show - the show isn't asking me to identify with women that I have absolutely nothing in common with.

he is plain human. He's ALWAYS been the human Han Solo to Sam's Skywalker, the Batman to Sam's ... huh. Superman, maybe.

YES to this. I once wanted to write a meta on why it was that Dean identified with Batman so much, but this basically sums it up. Batman was a human who used his intelligence (and financial power) to be a superhero...whereas the other major superheroes all had something non-human about them - be it Superman (alien) or Spider-man (radioactive spider infection!)

I wouldn't mind some explanation how Dean could kill the whore of Babylon, or Zach, though. Maybe it's that special "spark of God" that supposedly sits in every human, and it's only brighter in Dean?

To me these aren't questions. Dean was able to kill the Whore because he had already decided to serve heaven and say yes to Michael - thus making him a servant of heaven.

He was able to kill Zach, because he had an angel killing sword.

Now, that being said, there's a small moment in Two Minutes to Midnight where Dean is playing with the horseman rings and Bobby comes up and goes to touch the rings, his fingers seem to hesitate and shake about two inches away from them, and then he withdraws his hand and though he DECIDED not to touch them...but to me it really looked like he COULDN'T touch them. I'd love an explanation of that...like maybe being the vessels give Sam and Dean certain privileges?
marlowe78
Nov. 3rd, 2010 07:40 pm (UTC)
Hmmm. I don't remember the ring-thing. Not clearly, at least.

I don't think Dean was able to kill the whore just because he decided to say yes. It's a good reason, I'll give you that, maybe the one the writers will just go with (to save themselves from having to find a solution)

I think I remember that the Whore could only be killed by a servant of god (right?) - therefore the reverend. My favorite solution would be that Dean WAS a servant of god all along. Not for any angel, but for God. He fought for humanity, which (I think, my bible is kinda rusty) would've been god's will, right? I mean, he put humans above angels, his first-"borns", so he wouldn't want them to just be eradicated.

And even if God 'left', he maybe only wanted his children to finally grow up - ALL of them, angles and humans.

And I have problems with this sword, because it was SAID that only an angel can kill an angel, no matter the weapon. It was said in OTHOAP, in... Point of no return (is that the ep with Zach's death?) and again in s6e3, when the Angels in Black scoffed about Sam holding the sword against their throats.


So while for the whore, more than one scenario makes sense, for Zach... none. Dean already REFUSED Micheal when he killed Zach and the sword alone wouldn't have done anything.


Mystery, oh mystery. But alas, we have some more Sam-issues to solve *sigh*

Ah, good enough for me :-D
hells_half_acre
Nov. 3rd, 2010 07:49 pm (UTC)
I think I remember that the Whore could only be killed by a servant of god (right?) - therefore the reverend. My favorite solution would be that Dean WAS a servant of god all along.

This works. But the specific wording was "servant of heaven" - Castiel said that he didn't count, so I assumed it was heaven-heaven, not God.

I really think the writers were going for the "already decided to say yes" thing, because of Sam's comment afterwards when he asked Dean if he was thinking of doing anything stupid "like Michael-stupid"...because Sam realized what Dean killing the Whore meant.

Also, there's nothing about needing to be a servant of god or heaven in order to kill angels...

It's true Uriel said that only angels could kill angels - but I think he just said that because only angels had angel-killing swords. Back in Heaven and Hell, when Sam asked Anna if there was anything that could kill and angel, she said that there was, but it was nothing they had access to at that moment...which to me meant that it was possible for humans to kill angels, provided they had the right TOOL (ie: an angel-killing sword).

As for 6x03, the angel just said "you think you can knife fight an angel?" while appearing behind Sam with the sword to Sam's throat - it was a comment on the angel's superior powers, more than it was a comment on the fact that Sam was human and therefore couldn't kill and angel.

So, yeah, I stand by the belief that as long as you have an angel-killing sword, you can kill an angel no matter who or what you are.
marlowe78
Nov. 3rd, 2010 07:54 pm (UTC)
Huh. Ok.

Yeah, what Sam said at the end of the Whore-episode (dude, that sounds like a bad porn!) throws a spanner in my theory. I forgot that.

Ok. He killed the chick because of that.

I still hold some mystery inside for how he could kill Zach - he looked into his eyes, dammit


I keep it in the back of my head, just like the "All things considered" combined with that LOOK at the end of "Nightmare", which ALSO leaves lots of interpretations :-D
hells_half_acre
Nov. 3rd, 2010 08:03 pm (UTC)
I still hold some mystery inside for how he could kill Zach - he looked into his eyes, dammit

I keep it in the back of my head, just like the "All things considered" combined with that LOOK at the end of "Nightmare", which ALSO leaves lots of interpretations :-D


Despite my defense of the usefulness of angel-killing swords. I agree that Dean looking into Zach's eyes as he kills him leaves A LOT open to interpretation...just like that line in Nightmare. ;)

Personally, although I want answers to EVERY LITTLE THING, part of me loves that they leave some of these little things open to our imagination.
marlowe78
Nov. 3rd, 2010 08:23 pm (UTC)
*nod nod*
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